Ford Powerstroke 99-03 7.3L Discussion of 99-03 7.3 Liter Ford Powerstroke Turbo Diesels

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  #41  
Old 02-23-2010, 03:10 PM
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http://www.gopowerhungry.com/images/...ock_vs_80e.jpg

80e vs stock...

Now here is one from a differant tuner and 80hp vs stock...

http://www.gopowerhungry.com/images/...ck_vs_80dd.jpg

Which one do you think is better for your motor?
 
  #42  
Old 02-23-2010, 03:15 PM
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Originally Posted by CSIPSD
As far as the first attempt... It worked great, just pointed at one thing...

... Ok...

85-90% of the 7.3's out there are automatics...
80% of the time one of the first mods people do is a cold air intake...

Do you understand why things like that are not really relivent?



How does bad fuel effect SOI(Start Of Injection)?

No one has ever said there is not more then 49 failures, but if thats all you can get thats all you can get...
Sure, I can understand that most trucks are equipped with an automatic transmission, and that many people like to install cold air intakes for performance benefits. Why can you and others not understand that 49 samples out of many THOUSANDS does not allow for any VALID conclusions to be drawn from the data?
I guess I must reiterate myself again... I am new to the diesel performance stuff. I have no clue in the world how bad fuel could affect Start of Injection, or even if it could. To be honest, I'm not even really sure where that comment came from.
 
  #43  
Old 02-23-2010, 03:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Ifart
Bad fuel? Improper oil? Dirty air filter? Many things other than a power chip can affect the performance of the motor. 49 failures out of many thousands ain't worth the paper its written on amigo. How many power chipped trucks are there on the road that haven't had engine failure? I'd bet you a handsome sum of money its a lot more than 49. And since you didn't answer my questions should I write them again or can I assume your lack of response means you have no good answer to provide?
Originally Posted by Ifart
Sure, I can understand that most trucks are equipped with an automatic transmission, and that many people like to install cold air intakes for performance benefits. Why can you and others not understand that 49 samples out of many THOUSANDS does not allow for any VALID conclusions to be drawn from the data?
I guess I must reiterate myself again... I am new to the diesel performance stuff. I have no clue in the world how bad fuel could affect Start of Injection, or even if it could. To be honest, I'm not even really sure where that comment came from.
There is only one thing, and one thing only that controls SOI... That is tuning. Nothing else. When you have a tuner commanding SOI at 38*-45*... well, your going to have bad things happen.

There is only one thing that can get that burn pattern clear to the walls of the cylinders... Advanced timing...
 
  #44  
Old 02-23-2010, 03:50 PM
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Joe, there are lot of variables that can effect SOI.

And NO offense to Bill, but he is in direct competition with DP Tuner, so I take his info with a grain of salt.

Ifart, not sure who you are, but your intelligent.
 
  #45  
Old 02-23-2010, 03:58 PM
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Originally Posted by TerminatorEngineering
Joe, there are lot of variables that can effect SOI.

And NO offense to Bill, but he is in direct competition with DP Tuner, so I take his info with a grain of salt.

Ifart, not sure who you are, but your intelligent.

Joey,

Please tell me, what can effect the SOI?

So are you saying that Bill is faking these graphs? Thats a pretty big leap for a well respected guy in the industry to take just to "trash" the competition...

Yet he has nothing bad to say about Tony Wildman, or Beans, or Swamps, or any other of the 10 tuners out there. I mean it sure seems like he is trying to drum up busness...???
 

Last edited by CSIPSD; 02-23-2010 at 04:03 PM.
  #46  
Old 02-23-2010, 04:04 PM
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This is a great quote of Bills from another site...

First, to call it timing on a diesel is actually an incorrect term. What it is really called is Start of Injection, or SOI. For the remainder, I will use this term when referring to diesels.

In essence, the two terms (timing and SOI) are fairly interchangeable as they both relate to some point in the crankshaft rotation where combustion occurs. The difference is that on a gasoline engine, the point of combustion is fairly exact (the point where the spark plug fires) while on the diesel engine, the point of combustion varies depending on cylinder temperature, cylinder pressure, air temperature, fuel temperature, fuel pressure (as it is injected), and when the injection event occurs (SOI). Some parameters have more of an influence that others, but for the sake of comparison we'll say that the point of injection is more or less the point of combustion.

Like any other combustion engine, the point of combustion must be timed in order to achieve a flame front that smoothly heats the air and provides useful, downward pressure on the piston. If the combustion occurs too late, the energy is wasted "chasing" the piston down the stroke. If the combustion occurs too early, the energy "stalls" the piston on the upward stroke, creating immense stress on the piston, rod, crankshaft and block. To paint this a little more figuratively, you can think of excessive timing as a sort of thermal hydrolock, and the affects are actually quite similar.

I think it's safe to say that Ford's tuning is a bit conservative so when we look at the stock SOI curve with 24º at 3500 RPM, I think that the stock curve would be a good place to use for comparison against what would be considered ideal, aggressive or excessive.

Any internal combustion engine is going to suffer engine failure if the flame front occurs to soon. It doesn't matter if it's a piston engine or a rotary engine, gas engine or diesel. By causing the combustion process too early, the piston becomes a stop-block and all the reciprocating or rotating components are "shocked" into deceleration and load bearing structures (especially the connecting rod) are stressed to the point where they eventually fail.

The only real analogy I can offer is to think of a bicycle where the chain is directly attached to the wheel (no free-wheel). As you pedal, you are pushing down on the crank after the crank has reached the top, in most cases about 30º after reaching the top. If you push exactly as the crank reaches the top, you're expending energy but it's not really accomplishing anything as the crank is not at an angle to utilize the energy being expended. At some point your leg would become fatigued but no real damage. Now, if you push the crank as it is traveling upwards, the result depends on the energy being expended (how hard you're pushing). Push down a little and all you do is slow down. Push down hard or lock your leg, and you're going over the handlebars. If your leg was strong enough, you'd snap the crank. I know it's a silly analogy, but it really is a good comparison.

As I said, the Ford tuning is a bit conservative. We've seen performance gains as well as efficiency gains with moderate timing and fuel increases. However, you can't dispute the general dynamics of the internal combustion engine. The fact is that timing / SOI / combustion that is too advanced can, and will, destroy an engine. Just ask any Gen 2 Lightning owner what happens with only 2º or 3º too much advance. They have PMRs too and you only need detonation 1 time to window the block.

I hope this helps.
 
  #47  
Old 02-23-2010, 04:11 PM
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Why all the questions about SOI "CSIPSD"? "big stroker" asked what could you put in your truck that changes everything about the way it runs. I threw out a few examples of things that could potentially affect the way the engine runs that aren't power chips and now you seem to think I have some higher understanding of everything that controls the engine and the injection event for some reason?
I can't make anything of the graphs you posted because there is nothing I could see that states what is being portrayed by the graphs. I gather that it is a comparison of a power chip setting to a stock setting. One is very close to stock, while the other differs more. If these graphs are showing a change from stock in the form of increased power, I would say that the first graph shows the most gains. You ask which is better for my motor? I would say the stock setting, because it was designed to work with the stock motor.
 
  #48  
Old 02-23-2010, 04:25 PM
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Wow, this has become interesting.

My 2 cents, and that's all it may be worth. My background: I am a small time tuner of gas engines, specifically GM stuff like Corvettes, GTO's and F bodies. Timing in my world is a little different in that I change the event at which ignition occurs Vs how much fuel is injected. The net outcome is an increase in dynamic compression resulting in an increase in power -- simple, right? I have seen the carnage on engines that have been forced induced with too much timing and the legitimate end results have been broken or melted pistons or a rod. Never have I seen a cracked main or stress crack in a block just because some "tuner" (and this includes MY competitors as well as myself) put too much timing in to it.

Furthermore, as far as what diesel pistons look like when taken out of an engine that's been modified AND with a tuner applied -- THEY ALL HAVE THAT STAR PATTERN!! Don't believe me? Ask any shop worthy of telling the truth and they will tell you the same. Spraying into the edges of the piston I think, is a non argument since since that could easily be the result of bad injector spray pattern. It has been featured in Diesel Power Magazine many times in the last two years. Someone above even mentioned they had some different styled injectors on their block to begin with.

I also agree with the statements made about the survey solicited. Internet surveys are notoriously inaccurate and usually trended toward the leading vendor:

"Hey Bob, you gotta get on here and blast DP Tuner and show your support for XYZ company. He's giving out $50 for every bad thing said about DP Tuner so unless you don't like money, I'd get in while the gettin's good...."

Believe me, I've dealt with these situations before. People can turn into a flock of mindless sheep in a hurry when there's something bad to say about a vendor. It's amazing how we all seem to jump on a bash bandwagon faster than when it's about good comments. But I digress....

As for the rules of this site I have the following thoughts:

CSIPSD I understand you are a Moderator, correct? You of all people should stay out of these discussions because after all.......you're a moderator! You are supposed to be the indifferent, unbiased watcher so we don't single out or offend vendors or other members here. I am not saying your words don't matter. Not at all, as I am sure you have much more experience in diesel engines and mods than Mr. Ifart or myself. (goofy name BTW)

I have a question (and this is hypothetical) for all the people who have ever towed/raced/raced while towing/done burnouts, etc while using the wrong programmer power setting and had failures. Exactly how many of them would 'fess up to having done that no matter WHO was controlling their timing??? Huh?
 
  #49  
Old 02-23-2010, 04:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Ifart
Why all the questions about SOI "CSIPSD"? "big stroker" asked what could you put in your truck that changes everything about the way it runs. I threw out a few examples of things that could potentially affect the way the engine runs that aren't power chips and now you seem to think I have some higher understanding of everything that controls the engine and the injection event for some reason?
I can't make anything of the graphs you posted because there is nothing I could see that states what is being portrayed by the graphs. I gather that it is a comparison of a power chip setting to a stock setting. One is very close to stock, while the other differs more. If these graphs are showing a change from stock in the form of increased power, I would say that the first graph shows the most gains. You ask which is better for my motor? I would say the stock setting, because it was designed to work with the stock motor.
Because there is only one thing that causes the star pattern to be as large as it is in my pictures, and in Big Strokers to a lesser extent. That is advanced timing. There is only one thing that tells the injector when to start spraying. The PCM.

The graphs I posted show timing/RPM...

The first one shows a stock PCM cal vs a DP 80e

Second one shows a stock PCM vs a PHP 80e

Originally Posted by DA BUS
Wow, this has become interesting.

My 2 cents, and that's all it may be worth. My background: I am a small time tuner of gas engines, specifically GM stuff like Corvettes, GTO's and F bodies. Timing in my world is a little different in that I change the event at which ignition occurs Vs how much fuel is injected. The net outcome is an increase in dynamic compression resulting in an increase in power -- simple, right? I have seen the carnage on engines that have been forced induced with too much timing and the legitimate end results have been broken or melted pistons or a rod. Never have I seen a cracked main or stress crack in a block just because some "tuner" (and this includes MY competitors as well as myself) put too much timing in to it.

Then you know all too well what 3-4* of timing will do to a Ford Lightning with PMR's.

Furthermore, as far as what diesel pistons look like when taken out of an engine that's been modified AND with a tuner applied -- THEY ALL HAVE THAT STAR PATTERN!! Don't believe me? Ask any shop worthy of telling the truth and they will tell you the same. Spraying into the edges of the piston I think, is a non argument since since that could easily be the result of bad injector spray pattern. It has been featured in Diesel Power Magazine many times in the last two years. Someone above even mentioned they had some different styled injectors on their block to begin with.

You would have to have some jacked up nozzles to have them spraying at that angle... For referance I will post a pic of the factory motor with the same injectors, but differant tuning
I also agree with the statements made about the survey solicited. Internet surveys are notoriously inaccurate and usually trended toward the leading vendor:

"Hey Bob, you gotta get on here and blast DP Tuner and show your support for XYZ company. He's giving out $50 for every bad thing said about DP Tuner so unless you don't like money, I'd get in while the gettin's good...."

Again, no one is paying me... Or Big Stroker... or any of the other people who have windowed block after block running one particular tuner...
Believe me, I've dealt with these situations before. People can turn into a flock of mindless sheep in a hurry when there's something bad to say about a vendor. It's amazing how we all seem to jump on a bash bandwagon faster than when it's about good comments. But I digress....

As for the rules of this site I have the following thoughts:

CSIPSD I understand you are a Moderator, correct? You of all people should stay out of these discussions because after all.......you're a moderator! You are supposed to be the indifferent, unbiased watcher so we don't single out or offend vendors or other members here. I am not saying your words don't matter. Not at all, as I am sure you have much more experience in diesel engines and mods than Mr. Ifart or myself. (goofy name BTW)

As a moderator I can post my feelings, and thoughts just the same as you. No one on this thread has been singled out, no vendor has been singled out... The graphs I post are facts, no two ways around it...

I have a question (and this is hypothetical) for all the people who have ever towed/raced/raced while towing/done burnouts, etc while using the wrong programmer power setting and had failures. Exactly how many of them would 'fess up to having done that no matter WHO was controlling their timing??? Huh?
I blew up my first motor... My fault 100%

Fact remains there are guys running DP tuning at 400-450hp who window a block, then stick a new motor in and within weeks do it all over again, then go to a CR 5.9...

Or there are guys running 600-700hp on stock Ford Forged motors everyday and having no issues...
 
  #50  
Old 02-23-2010, 09:55 PM
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Originally Posted by big_stroker
Oh so did you run engine failure analysis on all them motors?
No I did not it was bills survey

That is the exact same thing every had been saying to us when we say that tune could be an issue in that survey.

The truth is no one knows.

but it is kinda odd if you look at that data and see that 30 or 49 engines were running DP Tuner.
And how many had a CAI or black CPS or A 203* t stat? Oh and how many were 1999 trucks?
Just because they had DP tunes Does not mean that DP caused the failure.
 


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