6.0 fast pump
#31
01-11-2013, 11:27 AM
Are there any good diagrams for the stock system?
I don't know the stock system, so it is hard for me to see any controversy about how a returnless system (regulated on supply side) vs a regulated return system works. I understand perfectly how both systems work in a gasoline powered car but I am not sure if there is something strange about our system that makes it all complicated and controversial.
Thanks,
Keith
I don't know the stock system, so it is hard for me to see any controversy about how a returnless system (regulated on supply side) vs a regulated return system works. I understand perfectly how both systems work in a gasoline powered car but I am not sure if there is something strange about our system that makes it all complicated and controversial.
Thanks,
Keith
#32
01-11-2013, 12:13 PM
Fuel is pulled out of the top of the tank, feeds up to the HFCM (horizontal fuel control module) where there is the large main fuel filter, and the pump. There is a fuel supply in, and a fuel supply out, fuel is sent up to the top fuel filter bowl. This is where it's regulated. There is a spring in there that will just "pop" open when pressure hits a certain point and returns that back. There are two lines coming from the fuel bowl, down to each head where the fuel is fed into the front of the heads. It runs in an internal rail all the way back to the back of the heads. The internal rail runs right through the head front to back. In the back, there are just plugs to stop it (this is why the heads can be used on either side). For the return, the fuel is returned via the spring popping off like I said, and runs back down to the HFCM, through the HFCM (not sure why this is even necessary) and then back to the tank. Pretty simple and very primitive. A spring popping off isn't exactly the best method to control fuel.
You can get some good pictures and diagrams from the coffee table books too.
DTS Articles - Coffee Table Books
You can get some good pictures and diagrams from the coffee table books too.
DTS Articles - Coffee Table Books
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Fourdoor (01-11-2013)
#33
01-11-2013, 08:59 PM
Recircing fuel through the HFCM is to help warm the fuel during cold weather.I would call this a recirculated supply loop with dead head supply to the injectors. Real simple. Similar to the fuel system on an old carbureted car when you get right down to it. A comparatively low pressure high volume pump supplies diesel fuel to the injection system just like the low pressure high volume pump supplied gasoline to the carb fuel bowls.
If you were doing a medium capacity system you should supply to one end of one rail (don't matter which end) and have a regulator at the same end of the other rail returning to the tank. At the other end from the supply and return you join the internal fuel rails together with an external cross over pipe. You could do almost as well just by increasing all of your fuel line sizes for increased flow capacity and using a high flow rate pump, but if you are doing that much work I can see simplifying the system by going to a return line regulated setup. A high capacity system would have supply lines to both heads at one end and a return line from both heads at the other end. If you are going to all this trouble for more fuel capacity I can see people skipping the medium capacity option.
Oh high HP modified 6.0's do you run into pulsation problems in fuel pressure? If so, boring out the internal passages in the head (if possible) could help. If the head passages can't be enlarged a fuel pressure dampener would work even better, but I don't know if anybody makes one for diesel fuel systems.
Later,
Keith
Last edited by Fourdoor; 01-11-2013 at 09:12 PM.
#34
01-12-2013, 02:37 PM
Not sure why everyone is getting their panties in a wad.
Karl, I'm not making known statements here, just talking it over with you because I'm trying to grasp the whole thing myself. Honestly I'm not really sure how the regulator works, I've never really played with one. Just bouncing ideas off of you.
What do you mean path of least resistance? I guess I didn't follow that one?
I understand full well how the stock system works and how most of the add on's work, but I've never really had my hand on one of these regualtor systems to fully understand it.
Now, my vegistroke is internally regulated. It sucks fuel from the tank, to the pump/filter area, and the return is right there (similar to stock), except mine is adjustable by a couple turns of a wrench and it then sends fuel up to the heads, and "deadheads" (sorry karl, don't know how else to explain it
) at the front of the heads using check valves. It's exactly how I think it shouldn't be done. Unfortunately using two separate fuel systems, feeding in from opposite ends of the heads, and using check valves to stop the flow going each direction, means adding a RR is going to be a major PITA with tons of extra valves that I don't want the headache of.
As for the RR, Dennis designed it and did a bunch of research and readings on the Ford systems trying to figure out how to maintain a minimum pressure to all 8 injectors. He definitely doesn't seem like he's trying to pull wool over anyone's eyes so to speak, I'm just trying to understand the whole system, and I'm a visual kind of guy. I need stuff in my hands to really understand it unfortunately.
No hard feelings here guys, just trying to learn like the rest of you!
Karl, I'm not making known statements here, just talking it over with you because I'm trying to grasp the whole thing myself. Honestly I'm not really sure how the regulator works, I've never really played with one. Just bouncing ideas off of you.
What do you mean path of least resistance? I guess I didn't follow that one?
I understand full well how the stock system works and how most of the add on's work, but I've never really had my hand on one of these regualtor systems to fully understand it.
Now, my vegistroke is internally regulated. It sucks fuel from the tank, to the pump/filter area, and the return is right there (similar to stock), except mine is adjustable by a couple turns of a wrench and it then sends fuel up to the heads, and "deadheads" (sorry karl, don't know how else to explain it
) at the front of the heads using check valves. It's exactly how I think it shouldn't be done. Unfortunately using two separate fuel systems, feeding in from opposite ends of the heads, and using check valves to stop the flow going each direction, means adding a RR is going to be a major PITA with tons of extra valves that I don't want the headache of.As for the RR, Dennis designed it and did a bunch of research and readings on the Ford systems trying to figure out how to maintain a minimum pressure to all 8 injectors. He definitely doesn't seem like he's trying to pull wool over anyone's eyes so to speak, I'm just trying to understand the whole system, and I'm a visual kind of guy. I need stuff in my hands to really understand it unfortunately.
No hard feelings here guys, just trying to learn like the rest of you!
Not being one to just accept "it just does" I did a little research on this. The missing part of this entire discussion was simply, the injector can be compared to single cylinder pump. This is what eliminates the path of least resistance theory because the injector is pulling in the fuel, not relying on it being pushed in. Further, psi gauges on both the housing test port and adjustable regulator showed little differential.
Wrong, not really, uneducated as to how injectors work, definitely.
#35
01-12-2013, 03:42 PM
I still need to figure out how our injectors work... black magic is my current assumption 
Keith
---AutoMerged DoublePost---
Just finished reading the fuel injector system section of the coffee table book. The injector doesn't "suck in" fuel. When HPOP pressure is bled off from the injector through the spool valve through the oil exhaust ports at the end of an injection event the intensifier piston rises to it's rest position allowing the fuel fill port to be uncovered allowing pressurized fuel from the fuel rail to re-fill the injector.
After reading the coffee table book, I wonder if anyone has developed a "stand alone" HPOP with it's own sump / reservoir that is divorced from the engine oiling system? I see why Ford did it this way (less expensive) but having a dedicated hydraulic fluid for injector operation would be much better than using engine oil. Almost positive that hydraulic fluid with the correct properties would never cause "sticktion" issues.
Later,
Keith
Keith
---AutoMerged DoublePost---
Just finished reading the fuel injector system section of the coffee table book. The injector doesn't "suck in" fuel. When HPOP pressure is bled off from the injector through the spool valve through the oil exhaust ports at the end of an injection event the intensifier piston rises to it's rest position allowing the fuel fill port to be uncovered allowing pressurized fuel from the fuel rail to re-fill the injector.
After reading the coffee table book, I wonder if anyone has developed a "stand alone" HPOP with it's own sump / reservoir that is divorced from the engine oiling system? I see why Ford did it this way (less expensive) but having a dedicated hydraulic fluid for injector operation would be much better than using engine oil. Almost positive that hydraulic fluid with the correct properties would never cause "sticktion" issues.
Later,
Keith
Last edited by Fourdoor; 01-12-2013 at 03:42 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
#36
01-12-2013, 04:52 PM
I agree on its own system if it was at all possible, I have worked on Catterpillar equipment for 20 years and the the HUI engines are a on going battle of injector failure. They start out with the same symptoms as the 6.0 first hard start then no start in cold.
I wonder if it could be that Caterpillar is unaware that the injectors actually
SUCK IN FUEL. This could be a major break through, is it possible that they are failing them due to pressurized fuel ???
I wonder if it could be that Caterpillar is unaware that the injectors actually
SUCK IN FUEL. This could be a major break through, is it possible that they are failing them due to pressurized fuel ???
#37
01-13-2013, 09:45 AM
The 55psi is needed in our systems to fill that injector back up like fourdoor said, however I'd imagine there is some what of a suction action taking place. The 55psi is only to fill the body of the injector adequately so the intensifier pistons can force it out of the injector at 20,000+ psi. So instead of having a commonrail setup where the CP3 or similar pump builds all the pressure and the injector would be a simple on/off switch, we actually use the HPOP and the body of the injector to build our pressure. WOT means 4000psi of HPOP pressure and the intensifier pistons in the injectors are at a 7:1 ratio... means 28,000 psi (theoretically). I've heard in all actuality it's closer to 22,000 psi at max.
Fourdoor, Ford did away with the heating element on the HFCM's back in like 2006 ish. Any new HFCM from Ford doesn't have that anymore. I think it speeds up algae growth, I always recommend anyone that still has it to unplug it, especially if you live in the southern states.
Fourdoor, Ford did away with the heating element on the HFCM's back in like 2006 ish. Any new HFCM from Ford doesn't have that anymore. I think it speeds up algae growth, I always recommend anyone that still has it to unplug it, especially if you live in the southern states.
#38
01-13-2013, 04:38 PM
#39
01-13-2013, 11:27 PM
Fourdoor, Ford did away with the heating element on the HFCM's back in like 2006 ish. Any new HFCM from Ford doesn't have that anymore. I think it speeds up algae growth, I always recommend anyone that still has it to unplug it, especially if you live in the southern states.
It still freaks me out that algae grows in diesel fuel! Are you sure it is algae and not some kind of bacteria? Seems like algae wouldn't get enough light to grow in a fuel system.
Keith
<edit>
Did some research, and found that algae isn't the problem. The following microorganisms have been isolated from petrodiesel and biodiesel:
Thirty (30) types of bacteria
Twelve (12) types of yeasts
Eighty-three (83) types of filamentous fungi (mat forming)
The mat forming fungi are probably what people are calling algae since it is the common cause of blocked filters and ruined pumps.
Keith
Last edited by Fourdoor; 01-13-2013 at 11:36 PM.
#40
01-14-2013, 07:40 AM
Keith, yeah I guess it is likely a fungi!
A few buddies in the vegistroke community noticed this years ago, we've been unplugging the heating element before Ford even did away with it. Our issue was having the truck start up on diesel, then switch over to WVO once it was up to temp, so the diesel stopped pumping, so whatever was there sat in the HFCM just being heated non stop with no flow, so algae (or fungi!) grew at alarming rates. Guys rarely changed fuel filters because they were lucky to put 30 gallons of diesel through it over a period of a few months. Then they started having issues running on diesel and pulled the filters and low and behold... realized the heater wasn't helping anything, and some guys even run aglae-cide in their diesel and WVO tanks now.
A few buddies in the vegistroke community noticed this years ago, we've been unplugging the heating element before Ford even did away with it. Our issue was having the truck start up on diesel, then switch over to WVO once it was up to temp, so the diesel stopped pumping, so whatever was there sat in the HFCM just being heated non stop with no flow, so algae (or fungi!) grew at alarming rates. Guys rarely changed fuel filters because they were lucky to put 30 gallons of diesel through it over a period of a few months. Then they started having issues running on diesel and pulled the filters and low and behold... realized the heater wasn't helping anything, and some guys even run aglae-cide in their diesel and WVO tanks now.
