Conceal carry - Sig Sauer
#41
11-23-2010, 04:00 AM
I'm not a fan of the 40 & while they say this is not a failure of the 180gr round, only going 1 inch or so into a human sure makes one sit back and think....especially as the Gold Dot is a superb preforming bullet...why/what kept the 40 from penetrating any deeper...
The report goes on to say that the 55 & 75gr TAP ammo did not preform as expected and did not meet the FBI's standards of performance...
The TAP round is what other 5.56 anti personnel/sniper rounds are judged by in accuracy and terminal performance when it comes to self defense ammo in the 5.56...how/why did this round fail and how/why did it not meet the FBI's standards...why is this round the round of choice for anti badguy teams around the country ...how does it stack up to the standard military 5.56 round & the new and improved Mk 262 & MK318 ammo.....along with the Black Hills comparable ammo.....
What did they expect as far as stopping a bad guy hell bent on going out in a blaze of gunfire....mentally prepared to deal with getting shot...
Lots of questions left un answered....that report to me created more questions than it answered....
I've always read that a lighter bullet (155gr or around there) in the 40 did better....but again I'm not a fan of the 40 and think it's a round created to "fix" a problem the FBI was having...instead of addressing any precieved weak areas in the 10mm (the 40 is a 10mm in diapers and designed for the FBI when it was found that agents had a hard time controlling the recoil of the 10mm or shooting them accurately) or the 9mm or 45ACP.
The 40 has a bigger bullet than the 9mm, less magazine capacity, a smaller bullet than the 45 but a extra round or two...it's not ballistically that much better better than the 45acp or the 9mm.
Personally I prefer a 115-124 gr +P or +P+ JHP in the 9mm and a 230gr +P or +P+ in the 45ACP....and military ball in the 5.56 but that's just me...
The pistol is a self defense weapon used to fight your way to your rifle/shotgun....it's not designed or expected to be a 40megawat blaster killing anything and everything...
The 5.56 round again ain't the same man killer the 308, 30/06 or the 50 cal is...it's good and it's accurate, but ya have to accept what it is and use it within it's limitations...and accept it will not end the fight every time with a single round....
Need to dig out the picture of the guy high on angel dust...he was shot 99 times (or around that) with 9mm's, blind, dead and dead, yet still trying to kill cops....and it took a few 12ga slugs to bring him down (he finally bled out)
Ever hear of the box of truth....lots of good to great info there... The Box O' Truth - Ammo Penetration Testing
Bottom line is any caliber/cartridge/bullet can and will fail.....it's up to the shooter to determine what caliber they are comfortable with, that the weapon they are shooting it in functions 100% of the time and is accurate with this ammo....and to know and accept the limitations of the weapon/caliber they are shooting...and to train and expect it to fail at the worst possible time.....
The report goes on to say that the 55 & 75gr TAP ammo did not preform as expected and did not meet the FBI's standards of performance...
The TAP round is what other 5.56 anti personnel/sniper rounds are judged by in accuracy and terminal performance when it comes to self defense ammo in the 5.56...how/why did this round fail and how/why did it not meet the FBI's standards...why is this round the round of choice for anti badguy teams around the country ...how does it stack up to the standard military 5.56 round & the new and improved Mk 262 & MK318 ammo.....along with the Black Hills comparable ammo.....
What did they expect as far as stopping a bad guy hell bent on going out in a blaze of gunfire....mentally prepared to deal with getting shot...
Lots of questions left un answered....that report to me created more questions than it answered....
I've always read that a lighter bullet (155gr or around there) in the 40 did better....but again I'm not a fan of the 40 and think it's a round created to "fix" a problem the FBI was having...instead of addressing any precieved weak areas in the 10mm (the 40 is a 10mm in diapers and designed for the FBI when it was found that agents had a hard time controlling the recoil of the 10mm or shooting them accurately) or the 9mm or 45ACP.
The 40 has a bigger bullet than the 9mm, less magazine capacity, a smaller bullet than the 45 but a extra round or two...it's not ballistically that much better better than the 45acp or the 9mm.
Personally I prefer a 115-124 gr +P or +P+ JHP in the 9mm and a 230gr +P or +P+ in the 45ACP....and military ball in the 5.56 but that's just me...
The pistol is a self defense weapon used to fight your way to your rifle/shotgun....it's not designed or expected to be a 40megawat blaster killing anything and everything...
The 5.56 round again ain't the same man killer the 308, 30/06 or the 50 cal is...it's good and it's accurate, but ya have to accept what it is and use it within it's limitations...and accept it will not end the fight every time with a single round....
Need to dig out the picture of the guy high on angel dust...he was shot 99 times (or around that) with 9mm's, blind, dead and dead, yet still trying to kill cops....and it took a few 12ga slugs to bring him down (he finally bled out)
Ever hear of the box of truth....lots of good to great info there... The Box O' Truth - Ammo Penetration Testing
Bottom line is any caliber/cartridge/bullet can and will fail.....it's up to the shooter to determine what caliber they are comfortable with, that the weapon they are shooting it in functions 100% of the time and is accurate with this ammo....and to know and accept the limitations of the weapon/caliber they are shooting...and to train and expect it to fail at the worst possible time.....
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big bad diesel 416 (11-23-2010)
) so maybe a sig .45 hmmmm
#43
11-24-2010, 01:13 AM
I won't own a .40 caliber just based on the cost of ammo. It's a bit more expensive (in my neck of the woods, anyway) than either 9mm or .45ACP which is really odd and I have yet to figure it out.
If you're not shooting a purely defensive round (JHP, JSP, Corbon Pow'rBall, etc.) then you haven't put enough thought into defending yourself and really haven't done any research into wound ballistics and what will cause the most damage in the quickest amount of time. I've seen too many shooters load regular ball ammo thinking that it will work, and the reality is most of the time the round won't even start tumbling until AFTER its left the person you're shooting.
For my rifles (AR-15 and SKS) I mostly use ball ammo for general target practice but I always keep some SP ammo loaded for those moments when we might have "unexpected visitors" if we ever happen to have one or three.
Ramprat is right about the .40 being a "fix" for the FBI. Female agents complained about the recoil of the .45, and male agents complained about the lack of stopping power of the 9mm ..... so the .40 was created as a trade-off between the two.
It would have been a better choice to simply keep the Beretta's they had and opted for better ammo.
Kris
If you're not shooting a purely defensive round (JHP, JSP, Corbon Pow'rBall, etc.) then you haven't put enough thought into defending yourself and really haven't done any research into wound ballistics and what will cause the most damage in the quickest amount of time. I've seen too many shooters load regular ball ammo thinking that it will work, and the reality is most of the time the round won't even start tumbling until AFTER its left the person you're shooting.
For my rifles (AR-15 and SKS) I mostly use ball ammo for general target practice but I always keep some SP ammo loaded for those moments when we might have "unexpected visitors" if we ever happen to have one or three.
Ramprat is right about the .40 being a "fix" for the FBI. Female agents complained about the recoil of the .45, and male agents complained about the lack of stopping power of the 9mm ..... so the .40 was created as a trade-off between the two.
It would have been a better choice to simply keep the Beretta's they had and opted for better ammo.
Kris
#45
11-25-2010, 05:06 PM
Diesel Bomber
Not quite right MarineOne.
The .40 S&W was developed from the ground up as a law enforcement cartridge designed to duplicate performance of the FBI's reduced velocity 10mm cartridge which could be retrofitted into medium-frame (9mm size) automatic handguns.
read all about it at the on line encycpidea known as wikipedia
Corbon Pow'rBall...well, that's a gimmick......nothing more...stay away from such animals they are better at separating you from your money than stopping the bad guy...
Is soft point ammo that much better than ball in 5.56 or the 7.62x39????
Keep the Beretta's who had??? Was not the FBI....they have never been issued Beretta's as the primary sidearm....
The .40 S&W was developed from the ground up as a law enforcement cartridge designed to duplicate performance of the FBI's reduced velocity 10mm cartridge which could be retrofitted into medium-frame (9mm size) automatic handguns.
read all about it at the on line encycpidea known as wikipedia
Corbon Pow'rBall...well, that's a gimmick......nothing more...stay away from such animals they are better at separating you from your money than stopping the bad guy...
Is soft point ammo that much better than ball in 5.56 or the 7.62x39????
Keep the Beretta's who had??? Was not the FBI....they have never been issued Beretta's as the primary sidearm....
#48
12-02-2010, 11:34 PM
Diesel Bomber
#50
12-03-2010, 12:32 AM
Diesel Bomber
Last I knew it was the Sig 229 chambered in 357Sig......
The 357sig was designed to mimic the 125gr jhp 357magnum round & that round is the #1 of all time bad guy stopper in a handgun..it also has superior penetration capabilities when shooting through a car door, glass or such barriers...it's also a extremly flat shooting cartridge, much easier to engage targets at 100 yards or further if needed.........
The only reasons I'd say the 9mm over the 357Sig is that the 9mm is cheaper & easier to find...It's a superb cartridge, but hard to find.....and expensive when you do find it.....
We were on a road trip & for S&G stopped in looking for 357sig.....nobody had it & all I had was 22rds of it....trying to find a emergency reload was impossible...
