New Track T-800CDI Diesel Motorcycles
#21
12-11-2008, 11:20 PM
#22
12-12-2008, 03:59 AM
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Track T-800CDI additional information
Here is some small additional information on your questions for you dieselinterested on the other side of the big water. (also nice for testing my english writing skills 
)
* CDI stands for Common Rail Injection. So it's a closed railsystem with electronic injectors
that work with a max of 2000bar pressure.
* Injectors from Robert Bosch with pre , main and post injection with different quantities directed by the ECU
* A straight pipe as suggested would do you no good on noise pollution due to the turbo working on 2.5bar pressure and cutting the noise level to 78 dB.
* Engine rpm between 850 and 4250 rpm. Max torque at 1800 rpm and than a straight curve.
* ECU stand for Electronic Control Unit which is ,for us as a manufacturer only, fully adjustable to suit any demand we require.
* Shaftdrive in combination gives of no torque jacking at all. smooth strong solid power at any speed.
* Testing the bikes is being done by our testteam doing 400K km to complete.
* US market.......... due to market policy and US protectionisme it won't be easy to come over... due to this protectionisme nice things stay in europe longer than planned.
* On different models, we are planning on a full fairing Track S-Track T800CDI.
We build the T-800CDI bike to be an All Road motorcycle with multipurpose use.
No Harley like shapes have our interest.
If you like that more visit : Neander - Motors - Dieselmotor however a very expensive bike.
* Pricing for 2009 ; 17500 euro . no dollar conversion possible due to no delivery to the US at this point in time. sorry.
* Tuning. ...... at this moment we have the best configuration on weight and power combined. tuning it more would result in a shorter lifespan and higher fuelcost. So tuning would bring nothing more than now available.
* Fuelpump 1 and 2. 1 is the electronic low pressure pomp in the fueltank. 2 is the high pressure 3 cylinder fuelpump that brings the fuel up to a max of 2000bar for use in the common rail system.
* When you guys overcome the financial crisis in the US and visit Europe again you are invited to come over to The Netherlands and have a trialride along the coast.
some questions for you:
- What does "dude" mean ?
- How do you see diesel on fuelefficiency ?
- Are you aware of GTL (gas to liquid) fuels being available for dieselengines only ?
- if yes on GTL, are you using it and what is the outcome ?
- why does the forum exhaust picture shows smoke. whoes car is that being out of tune?
with best regards
Erik Vegt ceo
EVA Products BV Holland
)* CDI stands for Common Rail Injection. So it's a closed railsystem with electronic injectors
that work with a max of 2000bar pressure.
* Injectors from Robert Bosch with pre , main and post injection with different quantities directed by the ECU
* A straight pipe as suggested would do you no good on noise pollution due to the turbo working on 2.5bar pressure and cutting the noise level to 78 dB.
* Engine rpm between 850 and 4250 rpm. Max torque at 1800 rpm and than a straight curve.
* ECU stand for Electronic Control Unit which is ,for us as a manufacturer only, fully adjustable to suit any demand we require.
* Shaftdrive in combination gives of no torque jacking at all. smooth strong solid power at any speed.
* Testing the bikes is being done by our testteam doing 400K km to complete.
* US market.......... due to market policy and US protectionisme it won't be easy to come over... due to this protectionisme nice things stay in europe longer than planned.
* On different models, we are planning on a full fairing Track S-Track T800CDI.
We build the T-800CDI bike to be an All Road motorcycle with multipurpose use.
No Harley like shapes have our interest.
If you like that more visit : Neander - Motors - Dieselmotor however a very expensive bike.
* Pricing for 2009 ; 17500 euro . no dollar conversion possible due to no delivery to the US at this point in time. sorry.
* Tuning. ...... at this moment we have the best configuration on weight and power combined. tuning it more would result in a shorter lifespan and higher fuelcost. So tuning would bring nothing more than now available.
* Fuelpump 1 and 2. 1 is the electronic low pressure pomp in the fueltank. 2 is the high pressure 3 cylinder fuelpump that brings the fuel up to a max of 2000bar for use in the common rail system.
* When you guys overcome the financial crisis in the US and visit Europe again you are invited to come over to The Netherlands and have a trialride along the coast.
some questions for you:
- What does "dude" mean ?
- How do you see diesel on fuelefficiency ?
- Are you aware of GTL (gas to liquid) fuels being available for dieselengines only ?
- if yes on GTL, are you using it and what is the outcome ?
- why does the forum exhaust picture shows smoke. whoes car is that being out of tune?
with best regards
Erik Vegt ceo
EVA Products BV Holland
#23
12-12-2008, 05:43 AM
#24
12-12-2008, 06:04 PM
Here is some small additional information on your questions for you dieselinterested on the other side of the big water. (also nice for testing my english writing skills )
* CDI stands for Common Rail Injection. So it's a closed railsystem with electronic injectors
that work with a max of 2000bar pressure.
COMMON RAIL SWEET !!!!! Thats what some of our trucks are
* Injectors from Robert Bosch with pre , main and post injection with different quantities directed by the ECU
Robert Bosch Designed a lot of our Injection Pumps and Injectors !!! This is AWESOME
* A straight pipe as suggested would do you no good on noise pollution due to the turbo working on 2.5bar pressure and cutting the noise level to 78 dB.
2.5 Bar is Just over 36PSI !!!! (We Mostly use PSI and not Bar) Thats Alot !!!
* Engine rpm between 850 and 4250 rpm. Max torque at 1800 rpm and than a straight curve.
Over 4,000 RPM on a Diesel That pushes the limits of Us Cummins Guys !
* ECU stand for Electronic Control Unit which is ,for us as a manufacturer only, fully adjustable to suit any demand we require.
No , Not For You Manufactures We want a Performance ECU Option !!! We Will Find a way, May as well make it easy on us , Were Americans..... MORE MORE MORE
* Shaftdrive in combination gives of no torque jacking at all. smooth strong solid power at any speed.
No Chains or belts ? Is this All Wheel Drive?
* Testing the bikes is being done by our testteam doing 400K km to complete.
The US Air and elevation is different You should give one away on Diesel Bombers
* US market.......... due to market policy and US protectionisme it won't be easy to come over... due to this protectionisme nice things stay in europe longer than planned.
The Market is Here , Past emissions and Your Good !
* On different models, we are planning on a full fairing Track S-Track T800CDI.
We build the T-800CDI bike to be an All Road motorcycle with multipurpose use.
No Harley like shapes have our interest.
If you like that more visit : Neander - Motors - Dieselmotor however a very expensive bike.
The Lower the Cost the Better ! Offer us a Striped down version
* Pricing for 2009 ; 17500 euro . no dollar conversion possible due to no delivery to the US at this point in time. sorry.
$23,368.60 ... EEK ... A Really Striped Down Version
* Tuning. ...... at this moment we have the best configuration on weight and power combined. tuning it more would result in a shorter lifespan and higher fuelcost. So tuning would bring nothing more than now available.
The Engines going to produce so many HP in its life , we can either use them up over time or tap into them and use them up Faster and have more Fun ! Its understood that at stock its in its best form for fuel and reliability , But in the USA most they will be Modified to deliver more in the areas the owner desires
* Fuelpump 1 and 2. 1 is the electronic low pressure pomp in the fueltank. 2 is the high pressure 3 cylinder fuelpump that brings the fuel up to a max of 2000bar for use in the common rail system.
No Way , This will be an issue , We want A Mechanical Fuel Pump Crank Driven Delivering More fuel than needed , the excess is returned back to the tank
* When you guys overcome the financial crisis in the US and visit Europe again you are invited to come over to The Netherlands and have a trialride along the coast.
Thanks for the Offer !!! Dont let our media Scare you , were still spoiled Rotten over here thanks to our troops of the past , present and future
some questions for you:
- What does "dude" mean ?
Dude , Homie , Man , brother , friend , pal , Buddy , Mate - all Slang for a Person
- How do you see diesel on fuelefficiency ?
A Diesel Engine is 30% more efficent than a Gas engine of the same Displacement
- Are you aware of GTL (gas to liquid) fuels being available for dieselengines only ?
No Im Not
- if yes on GTL, are you using it and what is the outcome ?
- why does the forum exhaust picture shows smoke. whoes car is that being out of tune?
Most of our trucks puff black smoke because we cannot afford twin turbos , We are running way more fuel than Stock Configuations , 2 times the fuel PSI and Way Way bigger Injectors , Fire Hoses
When we take off it takes a while to get our turbo to spool because we dont have a small charger only meduim to big , once the turbo spools the smoke clears up and away we go !! Some of us have 2 turbos , and some of us have proper fuel to air mixtures and do not smoke , most of us have a ton of fuel and not enough air and run 1200* EGT's on a normal basis
with best regards
Erik Vegt ceo
EVA Products BV Holland
Thanks for your input , and your english isnt bad at all we just want to learn more about your product and offer suggestions for your USA counterpart ,
Eggerly Awaiting more feedback
)* CDI stands for Common Rail Injection. So it's a closed railsystem with electronic injectors
that work with a max of 2000bar pressure.
COMMON RAIL SWEET !!!!! Thats what some of our trucks are
* Injectors from Robert Bosch with pre , main and post injection with different quantities directed by the ECU
Robert Bosch Designed a lot of our Injection Pumps and Injectors !!! This is AWESOME
* A straight pipe as suggested would do you no good on noise pollution due to the turbo working on 2.5bar pressure and cutting the noise level to 78 dB.
2.5 Bar is Just over 36PSI !!!! (We Mostly use PSI and not Bar) Thats Alot !!!
* Engine rpm between 850 and 4250 rpm. Max torque at 1800 rpm and than a straight curve.
Over 4,000 RPM on a Diesel That pushes the limits of Us Cummins Guys !
* ECU stand for Electronic Control Unit which is ,for us as a manufacturer only, fully adjustable to suit any demand we require.
No , Not For You Manufactures We want a Performance ECU Option !!! We Will Find a way, May as well make it easy on us , Were Americans..... MORE MORE MORE
* Shaftdrive in combination gives of no torque jacking at all. smooth strong solid power at any speed.
No Chains or belts ? Is this All Wheel Drive?
* Testing the bikes is being done by our testteam doing 400K km to complete.
The US Air and elevation is different You should give one away on Diesel Bombers
* US market.......... due to market policy and US protectionisme it won't be easy to come over... due to this protectionisme nice things stay in europe longer than planned.
The Market is Here , Past emissions and Your Good !
* On different models, we are planning on a full fairing Track S-Track T800CDI.
We build the T-800CDI bike to be an All Road motorcycle with multipurpose use.
No Harley like shapes have our interest.
If you like that more visit : Neander - Motors - Dieselmotor however a very expensive bike.
The Lower the Cost the Better ! Offer us a Striped down version
* Pricing for 2009 ; 17500 euro . no dollar conversion possible due to no delivery to the US at this point in time. sorry.
$23,368.60 ... EEK ... A Really Striped Down Version
* Tuning. ...... at this moment we have the best configuration on weight and power combined. tuning it more would result in a shorter lifespan and higher fuelcost. So tuning would bring nothing more than now available.
The Engines going to produce so many HP in its life , we can either use them up over time or tap into them and use them up Faster and have more Fun ! Its understood that at stock its in its best form for fuel and reliability , But in the USA most they will be Modified to deliver more in the areas the owner desires
* Fuelpump 1 and 2. 1 is the electronic low pressure pomp in the fueltank. 2 is the high pressure 3 cylinder fuelpump that brings the fuel up to a max of 2000bar for use in the common rail system.
No Way , This will be an issue , We want A Mechanical Fuel Pump Crank Driven Delivering More fuel than needed , the excess is returned back to the tank * When you guys overcome the financial crisis in the US and visit Europe again you are invited to come over to The Netherlands and have a trialride along the coast.
Thanks for the Offer !!! Dont let our media Scare you , were still spoiled Rotten over here thanks to our troops of the past , present and future
some questions for you:
- What does "dude" mean ?
Dude , Homie , Man , brother , friend , pal , Buddy , Mate - all Slang for a Person
- How do you see diesel on fuelefficiency ?
A Diesel Engine is 30% more efficent than a Gas engine of the same Displacement
- Are you aware of GTL (gas to liquid) fuels being available for dieselengines only ?
No Im Not
- if yes on GTL, are you using it and what is the outcome ?
- why does the forum exhaust picture shows smoke. whoes car is that being out of tune?
Most of our trucks puff black smoke because we cannot afford twin turbos , We are running way more fuel than Stock Configuations , 2 times the fuel PSI and Way Way bigger Injectors , Fire Hoses
When we take off it takes a while to get our turbo to spool because we dont have a small charger only meduim to big , once the turbo spools the smoke clears up and away we go !! Some of us have 2 turbos , and some of us have proper fuel to air mixtures and do not smoke , most of us have a ton of fuel and not enough air and run 1200* EGT's on a normal basis with best regards
Erik Vegt ceo
EVA Products BV Holland
Thanks for your input , and your english isnt bad at all we just want to learn more about your product and offer suggestions for your USA counterpart ,
Eggerly Awaiting more feedback
Last edited by DB Admin; 12-12-2008 at 06:09 PM.
#25
12-12-2008, 06:21 PM
#26
12-12-2008, 08:04 PM
* CDI stands for Common Rail Injection. So it's a closed railsystem with electronic injectors
that work with a max of 2000bar pressure.
thats 29kpsi, hot damn!
some questions for you:
- What does "dude" mean ?
- How do you see diesel on fuelefficiency ?
its great
- Are you aware of GTL (gas to liquid) fuels being available for dieselengines only ?
no
- why does the forum exhaust picture shows smoke. whoes car is that being out of tune?
mine is, for to many reasons but mainly, too much fuel in the wrong places and dyin injector pump
with best regards
Erik Vegt ceo
EVA Products BV Holland
that work with a max of 2000bar pressure.
thats 29kpsi, hot damn!
some questions for you:
- What does "dude" mean ?
- How do you see diesel on fuelefficiency ?
its great
- Are you aware of GTL (gas to liquid) fuels being available for dieselengines only ?
no
- why does the forum exhaust picture shows smoke. whoes car is that being out of tune?
mine is, for to many reasons but mainly, too much fuel in the wrong places and dyin injector pump
with best regards
Erik Vegt ceo
EVA Products BV Holland
#27
12-13-2008, 02:52 AM
#28
12-14-2008, 08:46 PM
Diesel Wrench
Just another thought.. with that thing being a common rail and tuned for efficiency, I doubt passing emissions would be a problem. It would be nice to have the option of an onboard tuner of sorts. Even something along the lines of the way a TS MP-8 works with a three position switch.
JB
#29
12-16-2008, 09:47 AM
Newbie
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 7
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We will be offering a 3 stage setup for the driver. This will change output from rain / tour to sport position.
100+ of settings are possible but on a motorcycle during riding it is not recommendable to change settings because of safety problems.
Tuning for us is optimising and not let everyone do what they want. than we get garanty problems and shortend lifespan of all components.
On this dollar issue , from european point of view "yes you can american" it should be done by downsize fuelconsumption and inject money in more efficient technology and alternative powersources like sun and wind energy. when you stay with your big fuel consumption trucks you economy will be dead soon from european point of view / history.
Why do your trucks use so much fuel ? weight ? poor fueleconomy ? oldfashion technology ? car manufacturer manipulatings ? brute force .. / sound ?......
The big reason we produce the Track T-800CDI is to be ready for the future.
Does anyone on this forum use 100% GTL fuel allready ? I like to discuss that item if possible.
regards
Erik Vegt
EVA Products Holland
---AutoMerged DoublePost---
Here is some small additional information on your questions for you dieselinterested on the other side of the big water. (also nice for testing my english writing skills )
* CDI stands for Common Rail Injection. So it's a closed railsystem with electronic injectors
that work with a max of 2000bar pressure.
COMMON RAIL SWEET !!!!! Thats what some of our trucks are
* Injectors from Robert Bosch with pre , main and post injection with different quantities directed by the ECU
Robert Bosch Designed a lot of our Injection Pumps and Injectors !!! This is AWESOME
* A straight pipe as suggested would do you no good on noise pollution due to the turbo working on 2.5bar pressure and cutting the noise level to 78 dB.
2.5 Bar is Just over 36PSI !!!! (We Mostly use PSI and not Bar) Thats Alot !!!
* Engine rpm between 850 and 4250 rpm. Max torque at 1800 rpm and than a straight curve.
Over 4,000 RPM on a Diesel That pushes the limits of Us Cummins Guys !
* ECU stand for Electronic Control Unit which is ,for us as a manufacturer only, fully adjustable to suit any demand we require.
No , Not For You Manufactures We want a Performance ECU Option !!! We Will Find a way, May as well make it easy on us , Were Americans..... MORE MORE MORE
* Shaftdrive in combination gives of no torque jacking at all. smooth strong solid power at any speed.
No Chains or belts ? Is this All Wheel Drive?
Why should we use a chain or belt ?? it's not the best option !
* Testing the bikes is being done by our testteam doing 400K km to complete.
The US Air and elevation is different You should give one away on Diesel Bombers
Do you have a diesel driverslicense than and you are use to 4 wheels won't you fall over ??
* US market.......... due to market policy and US protectionisme it won't be easy to come over... due to this protectionisme nice things stay in europe longer than planned.
The Market is Here , Past emissions and Your Good !
We have allready past EU and US emission test with best result so this is not the problem
* On different models, we are planning on a full fairing Track S-Track T800CDI.
We build the T-800CDI bike to be an All Road motorcycle with multipurpose use.
No Harley like shapes have our interest.
If you like that more visit : Neander - Motors - Dieselmotor however a very expensive bike.
The Lower the Cost the Better ! Offer us a Striped down version
We cannot help that your dollar is so low against the euro.
do someting about it and you will see our prices drop.
* Pricing for 2009 ; 17500 euro . no dollar conversion possible due to no delivery to the US at this point in time. sorry.
$23,368.60 ... EEK ... A Really Striped Down Version
* Tuning. ...... at this moment we have the best configuration on weight and power combined. tuning it more would result in a shorter lifespan and higher fuelcost. So tuning would bring nothing more than now available.
The Engines going to produce so many HP in its life , we can either use them up over time or tap into them and use them up Faster and have more Fun ! Its understood that at stock its in its best form for fuel and reliability , But in the USA most they will be Modified to deliver more in the areas the owner desires
* Fuelpump 1 and 2. 1 is the electronic low pressure pomp in the fueltank. 2 is the high pressure 3 cylinder fuelpump that brings the fuel up to a max of 2000bar for use in the common rail system.
No Way , This will be an issue , We want A Mechanical Fuel Pump Crank Driven Delivering More fuel than needed , the excess is returned back to the tank
Every manufactures is going to cdi, why would you want to stay with pompeduese ?? it has lesser possiblities that cdi with it's electronics
* When you guys overcome the financial crisis in the US and visit Europe again you are invited to come over to The Netherlands and have a trialride along the coast.
Thanks for the Offer !!! Dont let our media Scare you , were still spoiled Rotten over here thanks to our troops of the past , present and future
some questions for you:
- What does "dude" mean ?
Dude , Homie , Man , brother , friend , pal , Buddy , Mate - all Slang for a Person
- How do you see diesel on fuelefficiency ?
A Diesel Engine is 30% more efficent than a Gas engine of the same Displacement
- Are you aware of GTL (gas to liquid) fuels being available for dieselengines only ?
No Im Not
- if yes on GTL, are you using it and what is the outcome ?
- why does the forum exhaust picture shows smoke. whoes car is that being out of tune?
Most of our trucks puff black smoke because we cannot afford twin turbos , We are running way more fuel than Stock Configuations , 2 times the fuel PSI and Way Way bigger Injectors , Fire Hoses When we take off it takes a while to get our turbo to spool because we dont have a small charger only meduim to big , once the turbo spools the smoke clears up and away we go !! Some of us have 2 turbos , and some of us have proper fuel to air mixtures and do not smoke , most of us have a ton of fuel and not enough air and run 1200* EGT's on a normal basis
But smoke is an appearance of inefficiency with fuel on power and output......... use CDI and you will have more power to the gallon
regards
Erik Vegt ceo
EVA Products BV Holland
Thanks for your input , and your english isnt bad at all we just want to learn more about your product and offer suggestions for your USA counterpart ,
Eggerly Awaiting more feedback
)* CDI stands for Common Rail Injection. So it's a closed railsystem with electronic injectors
that work with a max of 2000bar pressure.
COMMON RAIL SWEET !!!!! Thats what some of our trucks are
* Injectors from Robert Bosch with pre , main and post injection with different quantities directed by the ECU
Robert Bosch Designed a lot of our Injection Pumps and Injectors !!! This is AWESOME
* A straight pipe as suggested would do you no good on noise pollution due to the turbo working on 2.5bar pressure and cutting the noise level to 78 dB.
2.5 Bar is Just over 36PSI !!!! (We Mostly use PSI and not Bar) Thats Alot !!!
* Engine rpm between 850 and 4250 rpm. Max torque at 1800 rpm and than a straight curve.
Over 4,000 RPM on a Diesel That pushes the limits of Us Cummins Guys !
* ECU stand for Electronic Control Unit which is ,for us as a manufacturer only, fully adjustable to suit any demand we require.
No , Not For You Manufactures We want a Performance ECU Option !!! We Will Find a way, May as well make it easy on us , Were Americans..... MORE MORE MORE
* Shaftdrive in combination gives of no torque jacking at all. smooth strong solid power at any speed.
No Chains or belts ? Is this All Wheel Drive?
Why should we use a chain or belt ?? it's not the best option !
* Testing the bikes is being done by our testteam doing 400K km to complete.
The US Air and elevation is different You should give one away on Diesel Bombers
Do you have a diesel driverslicense than and you are use to 4 wheels won't you fall over ??
* US market.......... due to market policy and US protectionisme it won't be easy to come over... due to this protectionisme nice things stay in europe longer than planned.
The Market is Here , Past emissions and Your Good !
We have allready past EU and US emission test with best result so this is not the problem
* On different models, we are planning on a full fairing Track S-Track T800CDI.
We build the T-800CDI bike to be an All Road motorcycle with multipurpose use.
No Harley like shapes have our interest.
If you like that more visit : Neander - Motors - Dieselmotor however a very expensive bike.
The Lower the Cost the Better ! Offer us a Striped down version
We cannot help that your dollar is so low against the euro.
do someting about it and you will see our prices drop.* Pricing for 2009 ; 17500 euro . no dollar conversion possible due to no delivery to the US at this point in time. sorry.
$23,368.60 ... EEK ... A Really Striped Down Version
* Tuning. ...... at this moment we have the best configuration on weight and power combined. tuning it more would result in a shorter lifespan and higher fuelcost. So tuning would bring nothing more than now available.
The Engines going to produce so many HP in its life , we can either use them up over time or tap into them and use them up Faster and have more Fun ! Its understood that at stock its in its best form for fuel and reliability , But in the USA most they will be Modified to deliver more in the areas the owner desires
* Fuelpump 1 and 2. 1 is the electronic low pressure pomp in the fueltank. 2 is the high pressure 3 cylinder fuelpump that brings the fuel up to a max of 2000bar for use in the common rail system.
No Way , This will be an issue , We want A Mechanical Fuel Pump Crank Driven Delivering More fuel than needed , the excess is returned back to the tank Every manufactures is going to cdi, why would you want to stay with pompeduese ?? it has lesser possiblities that cdi with it's electronics
* When you guys overcome the financial crisis in the US and visit Europe again you are invited to come over to The Netherlands and have a trialride along the coast.
Thanks for the Offer !!! Dont let our media Scare you , were still spoiled Rotten over here thanks to our troops of the past , present and future
some questions for you:
- What does "dude" mean ?
Dude , Homie , Man , brother , friend , pal , Buddy , Mate - all Slang for a Person
- How do you see diesel on fuelefficiency ?
A Diesel Engine is 30% more efficent than a Gas engine of the same Displacement
- Are you aware of GTL (gas to liquid) fuels being available for dieselengines only ?
No Im Not
- if yes on GTL, are you using it and what is the outcome ?
- why does the forum exhaust picture shows smoke. whoes car is that being out of tune?
Most of our trucks puff black smoke because we cannot afford twin turbos , We are running way more fuel than Stock Configuations , 2 times the fuel PSI and Way Way bigger Injectors , Fire Hoses
When we take off it takes a while to get our turbo to spool because we dont have a small charger only meduim to big , once the turbo spools the smoke clears up and away we go !! Some of us have 2 turbos , and some of us have proper fuel to air mixtures and do not smoke , most of us have a ton of fuel and not enough air and run 1200* EGT's on a normal basis But smoke is an appearance of inefficiency with fuel on power and output......... use CDI and you will have more power to the gallon
regards
Erik Vegt ceo
EVA Products BV Holland
Thanks for your input , and your english isnt bad at all we just want to learn more about your product and offer suggestions for your USA counterpart ,
Eggerly Awaiting more feedback
Last edited by EVA Products Holland; 12-16-2008 at 09:47 AM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
#30
12-16-2008, 01:05 PM
