Here we go... (Taking a deep breath)

Okay, so I had time to read through all the posts on that injector thread, and honestly I'm with Charles on this one... How in the hell did it get to be 2012 and people are just now discussing this on the 6.0L? I mean seriously? We've had the injector displacement/nozzle arguments on the 7.3L for over a decade now and people think the 6.0L injector is any different? I don't mean to be rude or obnoxious (and I sincerely do not mean any disrespect to Jared's efforts), but this is so far from "groundbreaking" news that I can only say that this was little more than a marketing tactic used to try and make one set of injectors look inferior to another set of injectors. The fact is that they are comparing apples to oranges, to use the popular term.

Let's take a look for a moment at a set of injectors for the 7.3L. You've got your stock injectors that might flow around 135cc-140cc max. Then you have Stage 1 Single Shots that flow 160cc. Finally, you have Stage 2 Single Shots that ALSO flow 160cc. The difference is that Stage 2's have anywhere from 80% to 100% nozzles. All this means is that they will achieve 160cc with a smaller puslewidth than the Stage 1's. At this point it's all up to the TUNING to maximize the capability of the injectors, plain and simple. Split/Single shot differences aside, there's a reason why 160cc/stock nozzle injectors make 50-75 HP more than stock/stock injectors... they have the capacity for larger volume. You just need to turn up the pulsewidth a bit. The 6.0L isn't any different.

So RCD has come up with the magic number of 2.46ms pulsewidth as the "limit" for the injectors. If that limit is no longer an issue, then 175cc injectors with STOCK nozzles will flow the same 175cc as the 75% nozzles, just with a longer pulsewidth. It will also, ideally, make close to the same power (much like the Stage 1's and Stage 2's on a 7.3L), but with a few differences. First, a longer pulsewidth with smaller nozzles provides improved atomization and better injection control. This not only means a cleaner, more efficient burn, but it also means a SMOOTHER combustion event. Anyone wonder why 7.3L trucks "windowed" running Stage 2's more than any other modified injector? The rapid injection of fuel (due to larger nozzles) combined with (arguably) aggressive timing curves causes an extremely rapid pressure rise and excessive peak cylinder pressure which results in evacuation of the rods through the side of the block. The 6.0L has a similar concern... except the results are blown head gaskets. Slowing the fuel spray with smaller nozzles prevents the rapid pressure rise and yields a much lower peak cylinder pressure. Plus, you get the added benefit of a longer burn rate which helps improve your torque curve throughout the RPM range. Sure, there's a small HP penalty, but not enough to say that Stage 1's aren't effective, and certainly not enough to say that Stage 1's are inferior to Stage 2's. 6.0L injectors aren't any different. They just need to be tuned accordingly.

I'm not saying that there isn't a time and place for larger nozzles, but since pulsewidth isn't a concern (at least not for me ) then there's no reason to suspect that I'll have any problems with 175cc/stock injectors. It's not any different than tuning a 7.3L at this point. If you move into a larger displacement injector, you are going to have to run a larger nozzle because at some point pulsewidth WILL play a significant role in fuel delivery. However, I'm not QUITE at that point... yet.

In the end, the point is that to call 175cc/stock injectors "inferior" or "misleading" in comparison to 175cc/75% injectors is completely inaccurate.

 

Awesome, thanks for sharing your thoughts Bill. This is exactly the info I was looking for. I wasn't exactly buying into the vid they posted, but didn't really know the specifics. You've covered it well. This is the kind of info this site is normally lacking, and I'm glad to see you here posting this.

I will be watching your upcoming mods/dyno runs closely.

Thanks again!

 

mpg's went DOWN, but its not Bills fault

 

Just for reference, Bob called me and told me that the pump he sent me was NOT an Adrenaline, but in fact a modified output HPOP that flows a bit over stock. I just wanted to make sure that there was no question when it comes down to final numbers. Sorry for any confusion.

 

Well, looks like my injectors will be here Friday and we'll get to start tearing into the 6.0L.

First, I want to say many... MANY... MANY thanks to Ryan Casserly at Full Force and Bob Riley at DieselSite for all their help and suggestions. They have gone above and beyond what I could have ever expected, and tolerated every stupid question I had. Despite the fact that we associate on a professional level, they are also great friends and have my respect for their knowledge and expertise. I enjoy learning as much as I enjoy teaching, and for them to take the time to educate me and then to be able to take that knowledge and pass it on is a blessing for me. Also, thanks to the guys over at Akins Ford in Winder who keep me well supplied with parts.

Now, with the collection of parts accumulating, we will begin first stages of testing this weekend. I'm still determining the order in which I want to install the components as to provide the most usable reference data possible without causing a severe complications with the truck. I'll have my final assortment of testing procedures lined out by Friday and will see if anyone has any suggestions or specific tests they'd like to see take place. I'm open to ideas, but please keep in mind that this is MY test platform and process and if I chose to disregard a request, well that's my choice.

So far, here's the bolt-on stuff...

For testing:

• Edge CTS with:
  • 2 Thermocouples (Left and Right Manifold - Measure bank output consistency. Not SUPER accurate, but helpful.)
  • 3 Fuel Pressure Sensors (Fuel Bowl, Left Head, Right Head - To measure Fuel Pressure drop at any point in the system.)
  • 2 ICP Sensors (Stock Location in Head and a Secondary at the HPOP - To Measure any possible ICP deficiency in the stock lines/rails. Also for testing the efficacy of the HPODS)
• TFX Cylinder Pressure Testing Equipment (especially for testing CP differences with different FICM tuning.)
• EyeSpy High Speed Datalogging Equipment
• Go Pro Hero2 Video Camera (for audible noise testing and video logging of CTS data.)

For Performance:

• Diamond Eye 4" Exhaust (No muffler for testing.)
• Full Force Diesel Injectors
• DieselSite Billet HPOP
• DieselSite HPODS (High Pressure Oil Delivery System.)
• 2005 90º Manifold Inlet (To facilitate the removal of the EGR Throttle Butterfly.)
• Banjo Bolts
• "Blue" Spring
• Rev-X Additive (Oil and Fuel.)
• EGR Delete (Already Installed.)
• Head Studs (Already Installed.)
• Snow Performance Water/Methanol Kit (Already Installed.)

Still need:

• Extra P/S Valve Cover (For the HPODS kit. Can't run without it!)
• Cold Air Intake (May just go TYMAR style.)
• Transmission (Hopefully not ANY TIME soon!)
• Intake Manifold (Steve... Are you listening? Can ya help a brother out???)

I think that's about it. We're gonna change the oil and filters before we tear into everything as I expect we're gonna end up with several hundreds (if not thousands) of miles of testing before we're through. Crap, that reminds me... I need to grease bearings on the dyno, too! Always something.

Getting close, guys. Since I'm limited to weekends for this sort of testing, this may take up to 3 weeks to get everything installed, tested, documented, and posted, but I will be posting results as I go. I'm sorry it is taking so long, but I promise you that it will be well worth the wait! Keep in mind that this engine has 285K on the bottom end with only a head job, studs, Black Onyx gaskets, and an EGR delete. It's nothing fancy... Just like may trucks out there already. While we're doing this testing primarily to satisfy our own curiosity, we're also doing it to show everyone out there just what works, what doesn't, and what is possible in regards to building not only a strong, but reliable high-performance truck.

Take care.

 

Did you end up going with 6 hole or 8 hole nozzles?

I think your trans will hold up for a while.

I really like all the monitoring equipment you're running, this is awesome. Those three fuel pressure pick-ups, I'm assuming the two in the heads are at the back of the heads right?

Think those black onyx gaskets will hold up?

Thanks for sharing Bill!

 

I want to say thanks for the info on injectors since i being of the less rich cant afford the get 175cc injectors with anything but stock nozzles and a lot of guys are telling me its a waist of money. Now i know and understand what im geting. I have one question though. Is the pulse width tuning done through the FICM or something like the SCT tuner? Thanks and sorry to muddle up your thread.

 

WOW! I have learned ALOT from this post! Bill youve done an amazing job giving a detailed layout of how your going to perform your tests and all. I am very intereseted and cannot wait to see the results! goodluck!

 

How long have the Black Onyx Hg's been installed? Interesting to see what the stock turbo does seeing as many cant seem to get over 500 with it, but none that I know of had water/meth either.

 

Very good thread. Lots of info on everything. changed my mind on the injectors due to it. good job!