6.0 fast pump
#11
01-07-2013, 11:58 PM
What has been suggested to me in the past was to put a psi gauge on the back of my heads and compare that to the psi gauge that is in the front of the filter bowl. But unless you t'd one in, you couldn't do that because your "regulated return" system is feeding from both sides of the head, if I read the instructions correctly. Typically the bottom of a fuel regulator is fuel in with the sides being fuel out.
If I missread the instructions, then the fuel is coming out of the filter housing, unregulated, to the heads, out the back of the heads into the new regulator, and finally meeting up with the original "Return To Tank" line at the fuel filter housing. Seems to me all this system is doing is regulating the fuel going back to the tank. Therefore your regulator and gauge would be after the heads, albeit on the front of the motor, but after the heads in a direction of flow.
#12
01-08-2013, 08:38 AM
I borrowed this from Dennis @ Strictly Diesel, from another forum. Hopefully helps to clarify a few things.
My thoughts...for what they are worth.
1. I've seen too many of the "Filter/Pumps" (not naming names, but both brands) that didn't make enough pressure for a Ford to begin with. Some can be turned up, some require new springs and I've seen both die a premature death when asked to run at 7.3L/6.0L pressures for any length of time. I won't sell a high pressure unit to any customer right now because I will not tolerate another angry call from a stranded customer.
2. I've also seen pressure issues with these units because the pressure is being regulated 6-10 "hose feet" before the all of the pressure drop and demand (55psi at the pump does not equal 55psi at the injectors). You will have pressure drop across fittings, through any filters and in the cylinder heads (particularly as the tuning drives power up and the injectors are asked to put more fuel into the engine).
3. Having the PRIMARY fuel pressure regulator for the system AFTER all of this ensures that whatever pressure it is that you want actually exists all the way through the system (assuming your pump is moving enough volume to support all of the demand).
4. Having 2 pressure regulators in the system sucks. In the case of the "filter/pumps", the pressure needs to be dialed up high enough that the regulator at the engine is actually controlling the overall system pressure.
5. I personally hate the high pressure "filter/pumps". I've been around the fuel system stuff for a while now and while I'm sure that there are people with degrees and smarts that exceed my level of understanding...I have learned a few things and have a pretty good grasp on the situation. From my discussions with the patent holder for the "filter/pumps" and my personal studying of how they work, I will take a LOW PRESSURE unit feeding a second fuel pump EVERY SINGLE TIME. The air removal will be better at 10psi than it will be at 55psi+. The load on the pump motor will be lower, the heat generated will be lower, the amp draw will be lower, the motor will be quieter and on and on and on.
6. Yes, with my preferred setup you have to have 2 pumps...considering the NON-OEM level of reliability of ALL of the "aftermarket" fuel pumps that are available for these trucks, I personally like the insurance of having a second pump in the system in case one of my pumps experiences a problem. This is how my race truck is plumbed and how my daily driver will be plumbed when I get around to installing my "filter/pump" on it.
7. I take issue with the "filter/pump" companies calling their products "fuel systems". They are pumps, with integral filters...and now with fuel pressure regulators. They do nothing for the flow through the stock fuel lines, nothing for fuel pressure regulation that accounts for all of the drop and demand in the system...they are just pumps.
Those are my 2 cents...if they are even worth that much. I'm sure that the "filter/pump" guys will disagree with me, and I'm sure some of you will as well.
1. I've seen too many of the "Filter/Pumps" (not naming names, but both brands) that didn't make enough pressure for a Ford to begin with. Some can be turned up, some require new springs and I've seen both die a premature death when asked to run at 7.3L/6.0L pressures for any length of time. I won't sell a high pressure unit to any customer right now because I will not tolerate another angry call from a stranded customer.
2. I've also seen pressure issues with these units because the pressure is being regulated 6-10 "hose feet" before the all of the pressure drop and demand (55psi at the pump does not equal 55psi at the injectors). You will have pressure drop across fittings, through any filters and in the cylinder heads (particularly as the tuning drives power up and the injectors are asked to put more fuel into the engine).
3. Having the PRIMARY fuel pressure regulator for the system AFTER all of this ensures that whatever pressure it is that you want actually exists all the way through the system (assuming your pump is moving enough volume to support all of the demand).
4. Having 2 pressure regulators in the system sucks. In the case of the "filter/pumps", the pressure needs to be dialed up high enough that the regulator at the engine is actually controlling the overall system pressure.
5. I personally hate the high pressure "filter/pumps". I've been around the fuel system stuff for a while now and while I'm sure that there are people with degrees and smarts that exceed my level of understanding...I have learned a few things and have a pretty good grasp on the situation. From my discussions with the patent holder for the "filter/pumps" and my personal studying of how they work, I will take a LOW PRESSURE unit feeding a second fuel pump EVERY SINGLE TIME. The air removal will be better at 10psi than it will be at 55psi+. The load on the pump motor will be lower, the heat generated will be lower, the amp draw will be lower, the motor will be quieter and on and on and on.
6. Yes, with my preferred setup you have to have 2 pumps...considering the NON-OEM level of reliability of ALL of the "aftermarket" fuel pumps that are available for these trucks, I personally like the insurance of having a second pump in the system in case one of my pumps experiences a problem. This is how my race truck is plumbed and how my daily driver will be plumbed when I get around to installing my "filter/pump" on it.
7. I take issue with the "filter/pump" companies calling their products "fuel systems". They are pumps, with integral filters...and now with fuel pressure regulators. They do nothing for the flow through the stock fuel lines, nothing for fuel pressure regulation that accounts for all of the drop and demand in the system...they are just pumps.
Those are my 2 cents...if they are even worth that much. I'm sure that the "filter/pump" guys will disagree with me, and I'm sure some of you will as well.
#13
01-08-2013, 12:21 PM
Originally Posted by Strictly Diesel
"My thoughts...for what they are worth.
1. I've seen too many of the "Filter/Pumps" (not naming names, but both brands) that didn't make enough pressure for a Ford to begin with. Some can be turned up, some require new springs and I've seen both die a premature death when asked to run at 7.3L/6.0L pressures for any length of time. I won't sell a high pressure unit to any customer right now because I will not tolerate another angry call from a stranded customer. This is probably why the AD2 has such a high failure rate.
2. I've also seen pressure issues with these units because the pressure is being regulated 6-10 "hose feet" before the all of the pressure drop and demand (55psi at the pump does not equal 55psi at the injectors). You will have pressure drop across fittings, through any filters and in the cylinder heads (particularly as the tuning drives power up and the injectors are asked to put more fuel into the engine). This is why I see using an AD100/150 with a better suited pump (HFCM) to get the fuel to the engine mounted regulator.
3. Having the PRIMARY fuel pressure regulator for the system AFTER all of this ensures that whatever pressure it is that you want actually exists all the way through the system (assuming your pump is moving enough volume to support all of the demand). Wouldn't this only regulate the fuel going back to the tank. What's the point of a regulator if this is your logic path?
4. Having 2 pressure regulators in the system sucks. In the case of the "filter/pumps", the pressure needs to be dialed up high enough that the regulator at the engine is actually controlling the overall system pressure.
5. I personally hate the high pressure "filter/pumps". I've been around the fuel system stuff for a while now and while I'm sure that there are people with degrees and smarts that exceed my level of understanding...I have learned a few things and have a pretty good grasp on the situation. From my discussions with the patent holder for the "filter/pumps" and my personal studying of how they work, I will take a LOW PRESSURE unit feeding a second fuel pump EVERY SINGLE TIME. The air removal will be better at 10psi than it will be at 55psi+. The load on the pump motor will be lower, the heat generated will be lower, the amp draw will be lower, the motor will be quieter and on and on and on.
6. Yes, with my preferred setup you have to have 2 pumps...considering the NON-OEM level of reliability of ALL of the "aftermarket" fuel pumps that are available for these trucks, I personally like the insurance of having a second pump in the system in case one of my pumps experiences a problem. This is how my race truck is plumbed and how my daily driver will be plumbed when I get around to installing my "filter/pump" on it. Again, small pump to move fuel from AD100/150 to the HFCM would work.
7. I take issue with the "filter/pump" companies calling their products "fuel systems". They are pumps, with integral filters...and now with fuel pressure regulators. They do nothing for the flow through the stock fuel lines, nothing for fuel pressure regulation that accounts for all of the drop and demand in the system...they are just pumps."
I'm thinking a "filter/pump" guy refers to the AD2/FASS set up. With my back ground in aviation hydraulics, I disagree with some of this statement. I'll keep my rant to just 1 question this time. Well, 1 question and my red comments above.
1. If fluid follows the path of least resistance, when you are on the throttle demanding more fuel, then how can that fuel be supplied to the injectors if the path of least resistance is out the back side of the head?
"My thoughts...for what they are worth.
1. I've seen too many of the "Filter/Pumps" (not naming names, but both brands) that didn't make enough pressure for a Ford to begin with. Some can be turned up, some require new springs and I've seen both die a premature death when asked to run at 7.3L/6.0L pressures for any length of time. I won't sell a high pressure unit to any customer right now because I will not tolerate another angry call from a stranded customer. This is probably why the AD2 has such a high failure rate.
2. I've also seen pressure issues with these units because the pressure is being regulated 6-10 "hose feet" before the all of the pressure drop and demand (55psi at the pump does not equal 55psi at the injectors). You will have pressure drop across fittings, through any filters and in the cylinder heads (particularly as the tuning drives power up and the injectors are asked to put more fuel into the engine). This is why I see using an AD100/150 with a better suited pump (HFCM) to get the fuel to the engine mounted regulator.
3. Having the PRIMARY fuel pressure regulator for the system AFTER all of this ensures that whatever pressure it is that you want actually exists all the way through the system (assuming your pump is moving enough volume to support all of the demand). Wouldn't this only regulate the fuel going back to the tank. What's the point of a regulator if this is your logic path?
4. Having 2 pressure regulators in the system sucks. In the case of the "filter/pumps", the pressure needs to be dialed up high enough that the regulator at the engine is actually controlling the overall system pressure.
5. I personally hate the high pressure "filter/pumps". I've been around the fuel system stuff for a while now and while I'm sure that there are people with degrees and smarts that exceed my level of understanding...I have learned a few things and have a pretty good grasp on the situation. From my discussions with the patent holder for the "filter/pumps" and my personal studying of how they work, I will take a LOW PRESSURE unit feeding a second fuel pump EVERY SINGLE TIME. The air removal will be better at 10psi than it will be at 55psi+. The load on the pump motor will be lower, the heat generated will be lower, the amp draw will be lower, the motor will be quieter and on and on and on.
6. Yes, with my preferred setup you have to have 2 pumps...considering the NON-OEM level of reliability of ALL of the "aftermarket" fuel pumps that are available for these trucks, I personally like the insurance of having a second pump in the system in case one of my pumps experiences a problem. This is how my race truck is plumbed and how my daily driver will be plumbed when I get around to installing my "filter/pump" on it. Again, small pump to move fuel from AD100/150 to the HFCM would work.
7. I take issue with the "filter/pump" companies calling their products "fuel systems". They are pumps, with integral filters...and now with fuel pressure regulators. They do nothing for the flow through the stock fuel lines, nothing for fuel pressure regulation that accounts for all of the drop and demand in the system...they are just pumps."
I'm thinking a "filter/pump" guy refers to the AD2/FASS set up. With my back ground in aviation hydraulics, I disagree with some of this statement. I'll keep my rant to just 1 question this time. Well, 1 question and my red comments above.
1. If fluid follows the path of least resistance, when you are on the throttle demanding more fuel, then how can that fuel be supplied to the injectors if the path of least resistance is out the back side of the head?
#14
01-08-2013, 01:27 PM
The whole design of the power choke fuel system is a joke, any real diesel has a mechanical driven pump that works hand and hand with engine load, the path of least resistant isn't out the relief when the set value from the injector manufacture requires a set value of X to be supplied to the injectors. The least path of resistance is through the injectors seeing how the are pretty much nothing more than a timed opening. They can only deliver what fuel is there to be delivered. Increased engine load has nothing to do with path of least resistant, it has to do with volume that the pump will supply to the injectors. The regulated return system is the best thing for these 6.0 engines for the fact that the flow through the heads cools the injectors. The argument of putting the regulator after the fuel leaves the heads is to see the pressure before the restriction. We all know a drop In psi in a hydraulic system will eventually show up before the restriction. But if its set in the return line after it leaves the heads there will be no question as to delta P if one was to put the gauge in the filter housing. I couldn't agree more with the comments on the aftermarket fuel Pumps they sale them as a fuel system with bandaids to patch the pump into the OEM lines. I'm not saying they wouldn't work, if they are calling it a fuel system where are the lines from tank to engine to supply enough volume to do so.
#15
01-08-2013, 02:02 PM
blownchevy... our HPOP is our gear driven pump that ramps up with RPM... we supply 55psi to the injectors to ensure that there is no air gaps created when that HPOP is pushing fuel at at a high rate. Granted, not many systems need 55 psi to the injectors. Most run about 10-15 to a high pressure pump like a CP3. It's still injecting at high pressures on ours, just doing it differently, using hydraulics.
Karl, you're looking at the regulator backwards, think of it more like the spring in our stock systems. It's letting pressure coming up to it build up to a certain point, then bleeding excess off to the tank. By putting it behind the heads you're ensuring that you're getting equal pressure through the entire system. So if it's set at 65psi, you should theoretically have 65psi from the pump all the way to the back of the heads where it hits the regulator and it bleeds it off sending the return fuel back to the tank. It's the only way to get rid of the "dead head"
Karl, you're looking at the regulator backwards, think of it more like the spring in our stock systems. It's letting pressure coming up to it build up to a certain point, then bleeding excess off to the tank. By putting it behind the heads you're ensuring that you're getting equal pressure through the entire system. So if it's set at 65psi, you should theoretically have 65psi from the pump all the way to the back of the heads where it hits the regulator and it bleeds it off sending the return fuel back to the tank. It's the only way to get rid of the "dead head"
#16
01-08-2013, 02:54 PM
Like I have said before, the "Return To Tank" line is all of the evidence you need to support this isn't a dead head system. Fuel, hydraulic fluid, gasoline, water, whatever, does not return to the tank/reservoir in a dead head system.
When the spring and poppet are removed, I can only speculate that the billet piece blocks what was return fuel port, redirecting 100% of the flow to the heads.
You have to admit that common practice is to regulate the fuel BEFORE it gets to the work, not regulate entire pressure side of the system AFTER the work. However, the ONLY way that I could have made the system work in my head was that the regulator was, in fact, working backwards as you have suggested.
But the jury is still out on getting the most fuel to the injectors when it can pass right over/through or however it flows out the back of the head.
When the spring and poppet are removed, I can only speculate that the billet piece blocks what was return fuel port, redirecting 100% of the flow to the heads.
You have to admit that common practice is to regulate the fuel BEFORE it gets to the work, not regulate entire pressure side of the system AFTER the work. However, the ONLY way that I could have made the system work in my head was that the regulator was, in fact, working backwards as you have suggested.
But the jury is still out on getting the most fuel to the injectors when it can pass right over/through or however it flows out the back of the head.
Last edited by Karls03; 01-08-2013 at 03:00 PM.
#17
01-08-2013, 05:50 PM
Mdub707 I'm using the stock ford pump with the driven diesel kit and it works fine. The only problem I have is that when I stand on the throttle I notice a big drop in pressure like down in the 20s. I don't think in my case that a back up fuel pump will help unless I change the lines and pick up in the tank. I read some of your feed back to others on fuel siphon tube change and a air dog to back up the stock pump. That is the route I'm heading. I would like to get rid of the secondary filter on the engine and remote mount it on the frame, Any suggestions? Thanks for the response on the HPOP.
---AutoMerged DoublePost---
The only time common practice would be two regulate fuel pressure before it goes to work would be on a Carburetor !
---AutoMerged DoublePost---
The only time common practice would be two regulate fuel pressure before it goes to work would be on a Carburetor !
Last edited by blownchevy; 01-08-2013 at 05:50 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
#18
01-09-2013, 02:20 AM
Like I have said before, the "Return To Tank" line is all of the evidence you need to support this isn't a dead head system. Fuel, hydraulic fluid, gasoline, water, whatever, does not return to the tank/reservoir in a dead head system.
When the spring and poppet are removed, I can only speculate that the billet piece blocks what was return fuel port, redirecting 100% of the flow to the heads.
You have to admit that common practice is to regulate the fuel BEFORE it gets to the work, not regulate entire pressure side of the system AFTER the work. However, the ONLY way that I could have made the system work in my head was that the regulator was, in fact, working backwards as you have suggested.
But the jury is still out on getting the most fuel to the injectors when it can pass right over/through or however it flows out the back of the head.
When the spring and poppet are removed, I can only speculate that the billet piece blocks what was return fuel port, redirecting 100% of the flow to the heads.
You have to admit that common practice is to regulate the fuel BEFORE it gets to the work, not regulate entire pressure side of the system AFTER the work. However, the ONLY way that I could have made the system work in my head was that the regulator was, in fact, working backwards as you have suggested.
But the jury is still out on getting the most fuel to the injectors when it can pass right over/through or however it flows out the back of the head.
Keith
#19
01-09-2013, 07:32 AM
Like I have said before, the "Return To Tank" line is all of the evidence you need to support this isn't a dead head system. Fuel, hydraulic fluid, gasoline, water, whatever, does not return to the tank/reservoir in a dead head system.
When the spring and poppet are removed, I can only speculate that the billet piece blocks what was return fuel port, redirecting 100% of the flow to the heads.
You have to admit that common practice is to regulate the fuel BEFORE it gets to the work, not regulate entire pressure side of the system AFTER the work. However, the ONLY way that I could have made the system work in my head was that the regulator was, in fact, working backwards as you have suggested.
But the jury is still out on getting the most fuel to the injectors when it can pass right over/through or however it flows out the back of the head.
When the spring and poppet are removed, I can only speculate that the billet piece blocks what was return fuel port, redirecting 100% of the flow to the heads.
You have to admit that common practice is to regulate the fuel BEFORE it gets to the work, not regulate entire pressure side of the system AFTER the work. However, the ONLY way that I could have made the system work in my head was that the regulator was, in fact, working backwards as you have suggested.
But the jury is still out on getting the most fuel to the injectors when it can pass right over/through or however it flows out the back of the head.
Your point is exactly what Dennis at Strictly diesel has been arguing all along, why regulate before the injectors? Same as reading fuel pressure before the injectors. How do we know injector #7 and #8 are getting the fuel pressure needed? Wouldn't you want the last injectors in line (furthest away from supply) to be the one's that you make sure have at least your minimum pressure ratings? If you're 55psi at injector #1, what do you think 7 and 8 will be? You've basically got 8 controlled drains there. Dennis says regulate it at the end, so you're regulating the entire system, not just 1/2 of the system in front of the drains. It is weird to think about, but it does make sense, especially on these motors.
As for it being dead head or not... that's a whole other can of worms haha.
Mdub707 I'm using the stock ford pump with the driven diesel kit and it works fine. The only problem I have is that when I stand on the throttle I notice a big drop in pressure like down in the 20s. I don't think in my case that a back up fuel pump will help unless I change the lines and pick up in the tank. I read some of your feed back to others on fuel siphon tube change and a air dog to back up the stock pump. That is the route I'm heading. I would like to get rid of the secondary filter on the engine and remote mount it on the frame, Any suggestions? Thanks for the response on the HPOP.
---AutoMerged DoublePost---
The only time common practice would be two regulate fuel pressure before it goes to work would be on a Carburetor !
---AutoMerged DoublePost---
The only time common practice would be two regulate fuel pressure before it goes to work would be on a Carburetor !
#20
01-09-2013, 06:11 PM
I do not support Dennis' post injector regulation argument. My question is why regulate AFTER the injectors? I do agree with him that a second pump is needed if you use an AD system. I also agree that regulating your system at the filter/pump near the tank is a bad idea. Regulate as close to the injectors, but before them.
Why do you need a regulator? Because the pump puts out more volume/pressure than what is needed to get the job done. That being said, I have looked into 5.7 TPI and Ford's 5.0 fuel rails. They are pretty much the same as what Dennis is doing. It worked, but that doesn't mean that I like it. I still believe that PATH OF LEAST RESISTANCE will hurt the injectors in a loop more than help them. Besides, 6.0s put out an assload more power than most built up TPI Camaro or 5.0 Fox did.
To address the aft injector starvation theory, I will offer this:
1. Not all 4 injectors are hitting at the same time. Therfore the fuel is there, in the head, to be used.
Why do you need a regulator? Because the pump puts out more volume/pressure than what is needed to get the job done. That being said, I have looked into 5.7 TPI and Ford's 5.0 fuel rails. They are pretty much the same as what Dennis is doing. It worked, but that doesn't mean that I like it. I still believe that PATH OF LEAST RESISTANCE will hurt the injectors in a loop more than help them. Besides, 6.0s put out an assload more power than most built up TPI Camaro or 5.0 Fox did.
To address the aft injector starvation theory, I will offer this:
1. Not all 4 injectors are hitting at the same time. Therfore the fuel is there, in the head, to be used.
Last edited by Karls03; 01-09-2013 at 06:14 PM.
