What injectors?
#1
08-11-2013, 03:21 PM
What injectors?
I have a fass 150 HD and a smarty and stock IP. Sometime hopefully this year I plan to purchase a SB SDD 3600 clutch. My question is, how big of injectors can I get before I need to get a bigger lift pump or an upgraded injection pump? What size lines would I need? Thanks.
#2
08-11-2013, 03:49 PM
Diesel Enthusiast
Unless your planning on drag racing or sled pulling 150hp injectors would be great for a street truck. You can keep your.fass 150 and your stock pump is fine. Your weak link is going to be your stock clutch til you replace it then plan on upgrading your turbo at some point. you can still tow on stock turbo w 150s just turn down your programmer. No need to upgrade injection lines either. Not beneficial for a street truck
#3
08-11-2013, 05:05 PM
O good. okay thats what i was thinking too but wanted other opinions first. I don't plan on actual drag racing at the track but if some punk thinks his little civic is quick, i wanna have more than enough power to the ground to show him what's up. As far as turbo goes I do plan on upgrading I just don't know what yet. What about the injectors that are advertised by the hole sizes and number of holes rather than Hp rating? I have heard of custom 7 hole injectors.
#4
08-11-2013, 05:46 PM
you can run 7x.012's or 6x.013s to take the SOVP44 to its fueling limits...
any larger than those two will just loose power and smoke more...
my truck is definitely at my vp44's fueling limits...if I adjust my injector duration higher it falls on its face and quite literally starts stuttering/pulsing from running out of fuel. (not due to lack of fuel pressure...held a solid 16psi during that dyno run test)
with the duration set lower it held pressure and laid down some decent numbers for the dyno it was on.
there is no need for upgraded lines or tubes. injectors alone with wiretap fueling will suck a vp44 dry.
the 7-hole injectors aren't custom... just giving the hole count and hole size are a more accurate representation of the injector vs labeling it (150hp or 200hp or 240+hp) because hp really depends on supporting mods and configuration...not the injector.
6-hole injectors are more of a custom/competition injector.
most injectors are a standard size and tip type, however mine are custom spec. I ordered mine with the following specs:
6x.013, micro blind sac, 152* spray angle, 300bar pop pressure, no lift.
some places will let you custom order like that...others will not.
my injectors were not "off the shelf" in fact...they were build out of my stock injectors! I sent them in as "cores" and instructed the builder to use them to build the new set.
and how they run:
any larger than those two will just loose power and smoke more...
my truck is definitely at my vp44's fueling limits...if I adjust my injector duration higher it falls on its face and quite literally starts stuttering/pulsing from running out of fuel. (not due to lack of fuel pressure...held a solid 16psi during that dyno run test)
with the duration set lower it held pressure and laid down some decent numbers for the dyno it was on.
there is no need for upgraded lines or tubes. injectors alone with wiretap fueling will suck a vp44 dry.
the 7-hole injectors aren't custom... just giving the hole count and hole size are a more accurate representation of the injector vs labeling it (150hp or 200hp or 240+hp) because hp really depends on supporting mods and configuration...not the injector.
6-hole injectors are more of a custom/competition injector.
most injectors are a standard size and tip type, however mine are custom spec. I ordered mine with the following specs:
6x.013, micro blind sac, 152* spray angle, 300bar pop pressure, no lift.
some places will let you custom order like that...others will not.
my injectors were not "off the shelf" in fact...they were build out of my stock injectors! I sent them in as "cores" and instructed the builder to use them to build the new set.
and how they run:
#5
08-12-2013, 10:53 PM
what would the advantage of running 7 hole vs 6 hole and who else sells injectors advertised by hole and size rather than hp rating?
---AutoMerged DoublePost---
who else besides DAP I meant to say. I would like to get some SDX injectors. Who sells those?
---AutoMerged DoublePost---
who else besides DAP I meant to say. I would like to get some SDX injectors. Who sells those?
Last edited by jdepuy618; 08-12-2013 at 10:54 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
#9
08-12-2013, 11:52 PM
you can run 7x.012's or 6x.013s to take the SOVP44 to its fueling limits...
any larger than those two will just loose power and smoke more...
my truck is definitely at my vp44's fueling limits...if I adjust my injector duration higher it falls on its face and quite literally starts stuttering/pulsing from running out of fuel. (not due to lack of fuel pressure...held a solid 16psi during that dyno run test)
with the duration set lower it held pressure and laid down some decent numbers for the dyno it was on.
there is no need for upgraded lines or tubes. injectors alone with wiretap fueling will suck a vp44 dry.
the 7-hole injectors aren't custom... just giving the hole count and hole size are a more accurate representation of the injector vs labeling it (150hp or 200hp or 240+hp) because hp really depends on supporting mods and configuration...not the injector.
6-hole injectors are more of a custom/competition injector.
most injectors are a standard size and tip type, however mine are custom spec. I ordered mine with the following specs:
6x.013, micro blind sac, 152* spray angle, 300bar pop pressure, no lift.
some places will let you custom order like that...others will not.
my injectors were not "off the shelf" in fact...they were build out of my stock injectors! I sent them in as "cores" and instructed the builder to use them to build the new set.
and how they run:
Twin turbo cummins vp44 dyno run - YouTube
any larger than those two will just loose power and smoke more...
my truck is definitely at my vp44's fueling limits...if I adjust my injector duration higher it falls on its face and quite literally starts stuttering/pulsing from running out of fuel. (not due to lack of fuel pressure...held a solid 16psi during that dyno run test)
with the duration set lower it held pressure and laid down some decent numbers for the dyno it was on.
there is no need for upgraded lines or tubes. injectors alone with wiretap fueling will suck a vp44 dry.
the 7-hole injectors aren't custom... just giving the hole count and hole size are a more accurate representation of the injector vs labeling it (150hp or 200hp or 240+hp) because hp really depends on supporting mods and configuration...not the injector.
6-hole injectors are more of a custom/competition injector.
most injectors are a standard size and tip type, however mine are custom spec. I ordered mine with the following specs:
6x.013, micro blind sac, 152* spray angle, 300bar pop pressure, no lift.
some places will let you custom order like that...others will not.
my injectors were not "off the shelf" in fact...they were build out of my stock injectors! I sent them in as "cores" and instructed the builder to use them to build the new set.
and how they run:
Twin turbo cummins vp44 dyno run - YouTube
Could you give me a quick schooling on exactly what these specs mean?
(6x.013, micro blind sac, 152* spray angle, 300bar pop pressure, no lift.)
I understand the 6 hole 13 thousandths of an inch diameter part but whats the rest mean?
#10
08-13-2013, 12:51 PM
Chris from DFI is the same Chris that was building injectors for SDX. He went off and started his own business so SDX has pretty much stopped taking orders for injectors since then.
as far as injector specs go:
there are 3 different types of nozzles that can be used on ISB injectors.
there is the VCO style (stock style) the micro blind sac, and the cylindrical blind sac.
this thread will show you the differences between them: Injector Breakdown - Dodge Cummins Diesel Forum
spray angle is the angle at which the injector sprays into the cylinder from the holes.
most all aftermarket injectors use injector nozzles from a different application to start with and extrude hone or EDM out to the larger hole size. Typically mack truck injector nozzles get used. however the spray angle for those nozzles and the proper spray angle for your truck are not the same.
I believe most of the nozzles for macks start out at a 160* spray angle. Your stock injectors use a 152-153* spray angle. so if that angle is not corrected, it will cause the injector to run hotter and smokier because the spray is completely missing the fuel bowl in the piston.
HO engines have an even smaller fuel bowl yet in the piston, and although they share the same stock spray angles on the injectors, it has been determined via theorizing and experimentation that running a tighter spray angle on a HO truck helps reduce the smoke output and reduce EGT's. So on a HO truck I typically recommend a 151* spray angle.
Pop pressure is the pressure the injector pops off at. basically your injector is spring loaded to a certain pressure. once that pressure is exceeded, the injector "pops" or opens via raising its pintle to allow fuel to flow through the injector holes.
bar is a unit of measure. 300bar = 4,351psi so the fuel must exceed this pressure before my injectors will pop off.
typical stock pressures are 280-290bar. the higher pressure helps keep a larger injector cleaner by making the fuel enter the cylinder at a higher pressure.
a lot of times when "lift" is added to an injector they will raise the pop pressures to 310bar to try and compensate for the excess smoke that adding "lift" creates.
lift in an injector is where they shave the top limiting collar of the pintle to allow the pintle to lift up higher when the injector pops off which in theory will allow extra fuel through the injector in an attempt to gain more performance from the same hole size.
dyno tests have proven this to hardly be the case... adding lift typically just causes the injector to run dirty (smoke more) with little to no gains vs going up in hole size instead.
then we have 6 hole vs 7 hole.
7 hole is the stock count for injector holes, and 7 hole will typically run cleaner than a 6 hole.
6 hole is used more for competition use since when they are larger in size, they tend to haze more at idle than a 7 hole with the same area cross reference. (total volume the injector can put out... example: 7x.012 and 6x.013 are a fairly close match with the 6x.013 being very slightly larger in area cross reference)
so if you want a cleaner running truck or run a single turbo, the 7-hole is your better bet for an injector...
if you want a maximum effort truck or you run compound twin turbos, the 6-hole injector tends to perform better under high boost conditions and has improved throttle response. however it can cause hazing at idle...
when my engine is cold, it hazes at idle...
after it reaches full operating temp, the haze is almost completely gone and you really have to look for it to see it... HO trucks will have less chance of hazing due to higher compression than the SO trucks..
lift added to the injector will also cause hazing.
as far as injector specs go:
there are 3 different types of nozzles that can be used on ISB injectors.
there is the VCO style (stock style) the micro blind sac, and the cylindrical blind sac.
this thread will show you the differences between them: Injector Breakdown - Dodge Cummins Diesel Forum
spray angle is the angle at which the injector sprays into the cylinder from the holes.
most all aftermarket injectors use injector nozzles from a different application to start with and extrude hone or EDM out to the larger hole size. Typically mack truck injector nozzles get used. however the spray angle for those nozzles and the proper spray angle for your truck are not the same.
I believe most of the nozzles for macks start out at a 160* spray angle. Your stock injectors use a 152-153* spray angle. so if that angle is not corrected, it will cause the injector to run hotter and smokier because the spray is completely missing the fuel bowl in the piston.
HO engines have an even smaller fuel bowl yet in the piston, and although they share the same stock spray angles on the injectors, it has been determined via theorizing and experimentation that running a tighter spray angle on a HO truck helps reduce the smoke output and reduce EGT's. So on a HO truck I typically recommend a 151* spray angle.
Pop pressure is the pressure the injector pops off at. basically your injector is spring loaded to a certain pressure. once that pressure is exceeded, the injector "pops" or opens via raising its pintle to allow fuel to flow through the injector holes.
bar is a unit of measure. 300bar = 4,351psi so the fuel must exceed this pressure before my injectors will pop off.
typical stock pressures are 280-290bar. the higher pressure helps keep a larger injector cleaner by making the fuel enter the cylinder at a higher pressure.
a lot of times when "lift" is added to an injector they will raise the pop pressures to 310bar to try and compensate for the excess smoke that adding "lift" creates.
lift in an injector is where they shave the top limiting collar of the pintle to allow the pintle to lift up higher when the injector pops off which in theory will allow extra fuel through the injector in an attempt to gain more performance from the same hole size.
dyno tests have proven this to hardly be the case... adding lift typically just causes the injector to run dirty (smoke more) with little to no gains vs going up in hole size instead.
then we have 6 hole vs 7 hole.
7 hole is the stock count for injector holes, and 7 hole will typically run cleaner than a 6 hole.
6 hole is used more for competition use since when they are larger in size, they tend to haze more at idle than a 7 hole with the same area cross reference. (total volume the injector can put out... example: 7x.012 and 6x.013 are a fairly close match with the 6x.013 being very slightly larger in area cross reference)
so if you want a cleaner running truck or run a single turbo, the 7-hole is your better bet for an injector...
if you want a maximum effort truck or you run compound twin turbos, the 6-hole injector tends to perform better under high boost conditions and has improved throttle response. however it can cause hazing at idle...
when my engine is cold, it hazes at idle...
after it reaches full operating temp, the haze is almost completely gone and you really have to look for it to see it... HO trucks will have less chance of hazing due to higher compression than the SO trucks..
lift added to the injector will also cause hazing.
