Twin Turbo using only Cummins sourced Holsets... Possible?
#11
06-13-2010, 10:13 PM
#12
06-14-2010, 04:20 AM
Thanks for the compliment!
My final power goals are around 400hp, nothing more. I want the truck to remain as reliable as possible, but with the quick spooling and EGT handling of the twins.
If you want reliable leave it stock, A good matched single will spoll fine for your set up and save you quite a bit of money. But if your dead set on twins as Begle said, a HT3B would be a great match after changing your exhaust housing.
I also mostly just want to have compound turbos, to say I put them in there. Overkill is underrated!
Again, the psi is based off my experience and 40psi in the different vehicles I've driven seems to be about the sweet spot for my ears... I'm hoping that with twins it will produce the perfect musical note. If I have to run a little more boost to reach 400hp, that is fine...
40psi is not gonna magically happen, boost is a result of fuel. Boost does not give you power, added fuel does and results in higher boost. Again dont worry so much about boost numbers (unless they get to high) and worry more about getting enough fuel to reach your power goals and the boost will come.
The criteria for my truck, is for me to enjoy it as much as possible and be able to spank just about any new truck on the road, without having excessively high maintenance costs.
This will not happen with a 1st gen, its gonna cost...
PDR diesel is just up the road from where I live, so I was thinking once I had what twins I was going to run sorted out, get the injectors to match to fuel level I need to keep everything happy... if the stock 91.5 injectors will do that... even better for me.
You stock injectors wont support that much power.
In this setup I am utilizing the factory supplied ZF-5 speed with 3.73(or whatever they actually are, but very close to this) gears. I would actually like to put some 3.31's or something in there to get better fuel mileage. This truck will haul some loads, but is mostly an empty cruiser...
What clutch are you running? A stock clutch or stock replacement will not hold those levels.
I currently run mechanical boost, oil and temperature gauges. When I make the jump to twins I will drill and tap into the manifold before the turbos for EGT.
Get gauges now, before you mess with anything else. you would hate to melt a hole in your piston before you even get a chance to put the twins on.
I seem to remember a diesel power article about putting studs in without removing the head... though my memory could be off. Would it be possible to install the studs one at a time bringing each one to the same torque level as the remaining bolts, then when all the bolts are replaced step up to the rated torque using the torquing pattern in the cummins manual?
Yes you can put studs on without removing the head. Do them one at a time and your going to need a BOTTOM tap, not a regular tap.
Would the piston mechanical pump be sufficient for my lift pump needs? I currently still have the diaphragm pump on the engine.
Maybe, you will be miles ahead with a electric pump though
Clutch is a brand new off the shelf unit for a 94+, I had the flywheel properly machined before installation... the clutch is beautiful in this truck and as it runs right now I can shift faster than I could with my Toyota Supra, my Celica or my 300zx. I can usually get back under throttle with 10-15psi of boost remaining from 22-25 on the gauge.
400hp will destroy it quick
Exhaust is already pretty open. The current setup is a 3" downpipe to just past the adapter plate where it quickly bells out to 5" without a muffler running to a stack on the passenger side of the box. I would design a new downpipe for the twin setup.
even of you are running 10" exhaust the 3" DP is chocking it up.
I was really hoping to find a turbo to work with the H1C as the big turbo, to reach just the right amount of airflow for the horsepower goals of the truck and to keep both turbos happy. If the H1C simply will not do this, I would still like to run turbos from Cummins applications so I have the best chance of getting a killer deal on them... I would be buying new turbo's to keep my mind at ease.
Your H1C cant be the big turbo, its too small. You can use it as a small turbo or the top turbo.
What is the fuel pin for the VE? Is that the traffic cone looking thing for low boost fuel? I currently have a 3200 rpm governor spring.
Yes its the traffic cone looking thing, but its for adding fuel under boost not low boost fueling.
I will be doing all of the design and fabricating work myself... math is not my strong suit, otherwise I would be trying to use some of the formulas I found for sizing compound setups. I guess I could get excel to do the heavy math lifting, still it is confusing at times. The big turbo is the easier one to calculate... total system CFM at it's pressure ratio. Figuring out the PR for the high pressure turbo is easy, but I get lost when trying to figure out how much it should flow and how much CFM the big turbo is providing...
Many a set of nice twins have been built w/o using math...
for what you are looking to do the HX35/HT3B Begle recommended will work fine.
My final power goals are around 400hp, nothing more. I want the truck to remain as reliable as possible, but with the quick spooling and EGT handling of the twins.
If you want reliable leave it stock, A good matched single will spoll fine for your set up and save you quite a bit of money. But if your dead set on twins as Begle said, a HT3B would be a great match after changing your exhaust housing.
I also mostly just want to have compound turbos, to say I put them in there. Overkill is underrated!
Again, the psi is based off my experience and 40psi in the different vehicles I've driven seems to be about the sweet spot for my ears... I'm hoping that with twins it will produce the perfect musical note. If I have to run a little more boost to reach 400hp, that is fine...
40psi is not gonna magically happen, boost is a result of fuel. Boost does not give you power, added fuel does and results in higher boost. Again dont worry so much about boost numbers (unless they get to high) and worry more about getting enough fuel to reach your power goals and the boost will come.
The criteria for my truck, is for me to enjoy it as much as possible and be able to spank just about any new truck on the road, without having excessively high maintenance costs.
This will not happen with a 1st gen, its gonna cost...
PDR diesel is just up the road from where I live, so I was thinking once I had what twins I was going to run sorted out, get the injectors to match to fuel level I need to keep everything happy... if the stock 91.5 injectors will do that... even better for me.
You stock injectors wont support that much power.
In this setup I am utilizing the factory supplied ZF-5 speed with 3.73(or whatever they actually are, but very close to this) gears. I would actually like to put some 3.31's or something in there to get better fuel mileage. This truck will haul some loads, but is mostly an empty cruiser...
What clutch are you running? A stock clutch or stock replacement will not hold those levels.
I currently run mechanical boost, oil and temperature gauges. When I make the jump to twins I will drill and tap into the manifold before the turbos for EGT.
Get gauges now, before you mess with anything else. you would hate to melt a hole in your piston before you even get a chance to put the twins on.
I seem to remember a diesel power article about putting studs in without removing the head... though my memory could be off. Would it be possible to install the studs one at a time bringing each one to the same torque level as the remaining bolts, then when all the bolts are replaced step up to the rated torque using the torquing pattern in the cummins manual?
Yes you can put studs on without removing the head. Do them one at a time and your going to need a BOTTOM tap, not a regular tap.
Would the piston mechanical pump be sufficient for my lift pump needs? I currently still have the diaphragm pump on the engine.
Maybe, you will be miles ahead with a electric pump though
Clutch is a brand new off the shelf unit for a 94+, I had the flywheel properly machined before installation... the clutch is beautiful in this truck and as it runs right now I can shift faster than I could with my Toyota Supra, my Celica or my 300zx. I can usually get back under throttle with 10-15psi of boost remaining from 22-25 on the gauge.
400hp will destroy it quick
Exhaust is already pretty open. The current setup is a 3" downpipe to just past the adapter plate where it quickly bells out to 5" without a muffler running to a stack on the passenger side of the box. I would design a new downpipe for the twin setup.
even of you are running 10" exhaust the 3" DP is chocking it up.
I was really hoping to find a turbo to work with the H1C as the big turbo, to reach just the right amount of airflow for the horsepower goals of the truck and to keep both turbos happy. If the H1C simply will not do this, I would still like to run turbos from Cummins applications so I have the best chance of getting a killer deal on them... I would be buying new turbo's to keep my mind at ease.
Your H1C cant be the big turbo, its too small. You can use it as a small turbo or the top turbo.
What is the fuel pin for the VE? Is that the traffic cone looking thing for low boost fuel? I currently have a 3200 rpm governor spring.
Yes its the traffic cone looking thing, but its for adding fuel under boost not low boost fueling.
I will be doing all of the design and fabricating work myself... math is not my strong suit, otherwise I would be trying to use some of the formulas I found for sizing compound setups. I guess I could get excel to do the heavy math lifting, still it is confusing at times. The big turbo is the easier one to calculate... total system CFM at it's pressure ratio. Figuring out the PR for the high pressure turbo is easy, but I get lost when trying to figure out how much it should flow and how much CFM the big turbo is providing...
Many a set of nice twins have been built w/o using math...
for what you are looking to do the HX35/HT3B Begle recommended will work fine.
#13
06-14-2010, 08:40 AM
40psi is not gonna magically happen, boost is a result of fuel. Boost does not give you power, added fuel does and results in higher boost. Again dont worry so much about boost numbers (unless they get to high) and worry more about getting enough fuel to reach your power goals and the boost will come.
Even with my modest power goals, where can I expect to have issues?
Any suggestions on injector sizing to meet my power goals?
I've only driven the truck once or twice since I played with the fuel screw the last time, and the amount of smoke it makes I back out of it real quick and get overly nervous. Another reason I'm deciding to go twins... I just want to make sure my EGT is under control.
Another item to add to the list of supporting mods. I imagine adding a low pressure fuel gauge between the lift pump and filter would be useful.
With the twin setup I will go 5" for the full length of the exhaust. When I put the Cummins into the truck I had to make due with what I had as my costs were too high. Now that the truck is going to get restored and all this work done, costs are not as much of a consideration other than to try and be efficient with my spending.
Thanks for all the valuable insight this is helping me enormously.
#14
06-14-2010, 11:10 AM
Diesel Bomber
i bet most of our sponsors on this website can still get you better deals than your buddy at the cummins shop
like rswords said, dont plan your power for your boost number, plan it for power and boost will comes. and not to mention i run 40 psi with a single charger, most guys that runs twins are in the 60s and 70s with their boost levels
im around or a little higher than your power goals already and im fixing something once a week it seems like. when you mess with the stock settings, things break
i run 5x.014's and thats the biggest i think id want for a street truck
i would leave the engine in it while your piping your twins if i were you. most the time they are a very very tight fit and building them in the truck could be enough to make them not fit when it goes back in
before worrying about twins, i would worry about getting a pyrometer in there, sure twins will help, but your not helping anything if you dont even know what your starting at[/COLOR][/quote]
certain studs need to clean the threads, and others need to cut the threads deeper. and yes arp is still a good brand
fuel pressure gauge is a must. and i would spend the money now and get an airdog, raptor, fass or equivalent. that was the single best upgrade i ever got for my truck. and fuel pressure gauge is definitely important, you need to know how much fuel is coming in all the time so you dont burn up your pump if something starts going back. upgrade it now and never look back. and if your worried about being on a budget and not spending the money, twins should be the last thing your thinking about
i see hx35s sell all day long for about 300 bucks. you can even find an hx40 for that every once in a while. do away with the h1c, theyre not very efficient at all
hx40/hx60 seems like a very good combo to those who use them. but like stated before, the hx35/ht3b combo is the probably the most popular. you can get an hx35 for 300 bucks and a brand new ht3b for about 700 from the sponsors on here. cant beat both turbos for 1000 bucks. not to mention theyre both super easy to find parts for
like rswords said, dont plan your power for your boost number, plan it for power and boost will comes. and not to mention i run 40 psi with a single charger, most guys that runs twins are in the 60s and 70s with their boost levels
im around or a little higher than your power goals already and im fixing something once a week it seems like. when you mess with the stock settings, things break
i run 5x.014's and thats the biggest i think id want for a street truck
i would leave the engine in it while your piping your twins if i were you. most the time they are a very very tight fit and building them in the truck could be enough to make them not fit when it goes back in
before worrying about twins, i would worry about getting a pyrometer in there, sure twins will help, but your not helping anything if you dont even know what your starting at[/COLOR][/quote]
certain studs need to clean the threads, and others need to cut the threads deeper. and yes arp is still a good brand
fuel pressure gauge is a must. and i would spend the money now and get an airdog, raptor, fass or equivalent. that was the single best upgrade i ever got for my truck. and fuel pressure gauge is definitely important, you need to know how much fuel is coming in all the time so you dont burn up your pump if something starts going back. upgrade it now and never look back. and if your worried about being on a budget and not spending the money, twins should be the last thing your thinking about
i see hx35s sell all day long for about 300 bucks. you can even find an hx40 for that every once in a while. do away with the h1c, theyre not very efficient at all
hx40/hx60 seems like a very good combo to those who use them. but like stated before, the hx35/ht3b combo is the probably the most popular. you can get an hx35 for 300 bucks and a brand new ht3b for about 700 from the sponsors on here. cant beat both turbos for 1000 bucks. not to mention theyre both super easy to find parts for
Last edited by tltruckparts; 06-14-2010 at 11:14 AM.
#15
06-14-2010, 12:00 PM
The engine is low KM and well maintained, I'm hoping that by keeping my power goals modest and adding the supporting modifications I won't have too many engine troubles. If I cook a clutch here or there, not a big deal.
fuel pressure gauge is a must. and i would spend the money now and get an airdog, raptor, fass or equivalent. that was the single best upgrade i ever got for my truck. and fuel pressure gauge is definitely important, you need to know how much fuel is coming in all the time so you dont burn up your pump if something starts going back. upgrade it now and never look back. and if your worried about being on a budget and not spending the money, twins should be the last thing your thinking about
i see hx35s sell all day long for about 300 bucks. you can even find an hx40 for that every once in a while. do away with the h1c, theyre not very efficient at all
i see hx35s sell all day long for about 300 bucks. you can even find an hx40 for that every once in a while. do away with the h1c, theyre not very efficient at all
Money really is the least of my concerns as far as this build. I was originally trying to sell my truck to buy a new super duty, but no one wants to buy an old worn out Ford with a Cummins... so I'll bite the bullet and get my hands dirty once more.
hx40/hx60 seems like a very good combo to those who use them. but like stated before, the hx35/ht3b combo is the probably the most popular. you can get an hx35 for 300 bucks and a brand new ht3b for about 700 from the sponsors on here. cant beat both turbos for 1000 bucks. not to mention theyre both super easy to find parts for
#17
06-14-2010, 02:05 PM
Perhaps I should have phrased that better... I've had lots of interest in the truck, but no one wants to pay what I was asking... $10,000, the cost of the engine and parts to install it into the truck. Is it a bit high? Sure, but it's my truck and if I don't get what I want for it, I just keep it!
#19
06-14-2010, 05:29 PM
I think I get that title... for putting a Cummins into a Ford with 300,000km and was mostly worn out to start off with! haha
Even more so now that I'm going to restore the whole thing... and my wife isn't even going to try and stop me, which is the really scary part. $40,000 in parts here I come!
Even more so now that I'm going to restore the whole thing... and my wife isn't even going to try and stop me, which is the really scary part. $40,000 in parts here I come!
#20
09-27-2011, 11:48 PM
I've spending too heavily elsewhere but my truck is in a very slow state of progress.
I've sourced an HT60 as the large turbo and I'm going to use my H1C as the high pressure turbo. What were to happen if I used my H1C(18.5cm3) over the HT60 with no wastegate and stock injectors? I'm reducing my horsepower goals significantly but I must have twins. When the restoration is complete my truck will be seeing many many kilometers through BCs Rocky Mountains. I've decided my current power level is sufficient for my needs, especially with reliability becoming a more important aspect of this build. Lag doesn't bother me, as long as I can get the turbos to both light up. I will use a wastegate if need be, but I am hoping that with my modest goals a non-wastegated setup would be possible.
I've sourced an HT60 as the large turbo and I'm going to use my H1C as the high pressure turbo. What were to happen if I used my H1C(18.5cm3) over the HT60 with no wastegate and stock injectors? I'm reducing my horsepower goals significantly but I must have twins. When the restoration is complete my truck will be seeing many many kilometers through BCs Rocky Mountains. I've decided my current power level is sufficient for my needs, especially with reliability becoming a more important aspect of this build. Lag doesn't bother me, as long as I can get the turbos to both light up. I will use a wastegate if need be, but I am hoping that with my modest goals a non-wastegated setup would be possible.
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