1987 Ford 12 Valve Cummins conversion
 

Hey guys, after filling up my 460 at the pump everyday after school, I decided to go diesel. I bought a 1992 W250 4x4 Cummins 5 speed as my donor. I already have the Cummins and Getrag in my truck. I'm now at the wiring stage and I am a little stumped. I've drawn some diagrams to help get a basic idea of what wires were on my 460 and how it should go to the Cummins. I am following Ford Cummins' instruction manual, and so I have hooked a 10 ga. wire from the small pole on the Dodge starter to the Ford solenoid on the fender. Then my battery cable from the large pole on the Dodge starter to my battery. The white wire to the fuel pump. I get nothing on in the truck (lights, tac, radio) unless I take the extra red wire (Pos. Choke lead) from my Ford harness and stick it onto the hot side of the battery. Even when I do that, the lights and accessories only come on when the key is in the "ON" position, and the truck will not start. I've tried switching the two wires from Ford harness, and I even switched the 10 ga. wire to the other pole on Ford solenoid, and then was I able to fire the Cummins up. However, I only had the key in the "ON" position (didn't have to bump the key) and the starter kept running with the engine :argh: Any help.input would be greatly appreciated, thanks!

http://i438.photobucket.com/albums/q...P4150003_m.jpg

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Well,
I removed the battery's ground cable from the Ford solenoid and just put it on the block, which caused only the lights to come on when my key is on. I put the battery back on the passenger side, put the ground battery cable back to the solenoid, and lights came back on. So....I'm gonna need a long positive battery cable.haha.Both the white/blue stripe wire and red wire I have left are both KEY ON, so I just splice into the line behind the pump?? At least I'm back on track :tu:

The Cummins in the Ford
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The ol' Getrag
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here is what you do, start allover. the ford stater soleniod on the fender, run a cable from the battery to one of the larger studs on it, then on the same stud attatch all of your fuseable links to it, that is where all the circuits on the truck get power from. the reason your truck is doing what it is is because when you touch that choke lead to the battery it is backfeeding voltage to your key on circuit. so i think your first problem is nothing on the truck has power, you need a large cable going to the dodge starter as well as a cable big enough to power everything on the truck going to the fender solenoid. then on the other side of that solenoid where originally the ford starter cable was bolted, that is where your 10 ga wire to the starter goes.

secondly, forget that choke wire thing, use your old positive lead that was powering the ignition coil to power your injector pump.

figure that out and i will help you with the alternator:)

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so was i right?

Looked right to me. Maybe we'll get an update shortly :humm:

Cumminsf150, I wired it just as you described it, and it still won't crank over, I used a test light on all my connections and they were good. However, I noticed that my ignition wire that goes to the "S" pole on top of my Fender solenoid was not lighting up on KEY ON or CRANK.

Here's is an updated diagram

Attachment 40893

ok , jump the two studs on the solenoid, if it cranks then you know you did it right, the solenoid may have a bad ground to the fender, i will get with yiu today on my lunch and figure it out

I jumped the 2 studs from my Ford solenoid on the fender, the starter started clicking and the fan on the Cummins was going back and forth, I held it there for a few seconds and my solenoid started to smoke :nshock:

Hmmmmmm :humm:

Ill get back to this later, got to go to town right now.

so we need to determine of the starter works properly, take your 10 ga wire that runs to the small stud on the starter and toutch it to the positive battery terminal. If you do that and all is well then the engine should turn over. that ford starter solenoid is designed to handel the full amprage load of the ford starter, so it should be more than enough to do what we are doing. once you verify that the starter works, go back to that fender soleniod. take a picture of it up close so i can see how you have it set up. remeber some of them have two large studs and two small ones, and the others have two large ones and one small one. the small one marked s is the one you want hooked to the small wire with the rubber slip on connector from your key crank signal, the one that you didnt have power at, remember it runs through the clutch pedal switch, so that may be the problem with that.
from the diagram you drew last, you dont show any key switched start signal, also you show a + and a - on the start solenoid, keep in mind that that is not a ground, but simply a continuation of the key switch start circuit. You dont have to use the fender solenoid if you dont want to, since the dodge starter has a built in soleniod, you are basically using one to control another, But i would suggest you do use it as it is the simplest way, and keeps your ignition switch wiring stock. It worked on my truck, so i know we can make it work on yours. get us a pic of the wiring up close and we can get it to work.

OK, so I took my 10 ga. straight to the positive terminal on the battery. Starter clicked and slowly turned the engine over some, but didn't fire. I think my battery is about out of juice, but I just charged it yesterday. Here are some pics of my setup.

Starting at the starter
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Up to the battery...
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To the solenoid...
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And my KEY HOT & CRANK wire on the fuel pump (where the blue wire was)
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im suspecting the ground may be bad, what do you have the main battery ground cable connected to? also, the other terminal on the fender solenoid, what is the I stud wired to? im pretty sure you wont need it for this set up.

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and keep in mind that when you touched the starter wire to the battery and it didnt fire, even if you had full battery power and it spun the hell out of it, it wouldnt run because there was no power to the injector pump if the key was off. if you can get it to turn the engine at a normal cranking speed, then we can dick with the ignition to the solenoid and IP. A healthy 12 valve with a primed fuel system and strong battery should start after one second or less of turning the key.

The main ground cable is connected to the frame, and the "I" terminal is just a small wire going to the top solenoid mounting bolt for extra ground.

well it looks like that I terminal is where the smoke came out, i dont think you want to ground that, cut it off and throw it away. that solenoid grounds by its mounting base where it is bolted to the frame. If you have the battery grounded to the frame of the truck, and the engine is sitting on rubber mounts, your starter isnt going to get enough ground to work, that starter pulls a lot of amprage, gound the engine block to the frame, the frame to the battery and the body to the battery, or the frame. the ignition , the lights and everything on the truck grounds to the body. the body needs ground straps because it sits on rubber as well.Basically everything needs a bad ass ground to be reliable.

The standard Ford Solenoid 'S' terminal activates the solenoid, 'S' for
'Start'. The 'I' terminal is for 'Ignition' and will have full +12 on it
when the solenoid has been activated by the 'S' terminal. The 'I'
terminal is the one that goes straight to the + side of the coil,
to give full battery voltage to the coil for starting. It is open
(i.e., no voltage) when the solenoid is not activated.

based on the above info, you are sending 12v+ straight to the fender bolt, thats why smoke is shooting out.

Oh, ok. Yea that "I" terminal never had anything hooked to it, some guys told I needed to ground that terminal (guess they're wrong). Ok, so I guess I will work on making a bad ass ground system and get back to ya. :U:

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Then how come when I put a test light to the terminals, one only lights as if it was ground and the other as positive?

I've grounded the engine to the frame and it still isn't cranking with the key. Also, on the diagram you drew, judging by the where the "S" mark is, it looks as if your cables are switched (The starter cable is on the right, not the left like mine).

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Even with the key ON, I touch the 10 ga. wire to the battery and it just clicks and slowly turns the engine over for a few for seconds until it just gives up until I touch it again.

mine is wired that way, you can use it either way, my truck was wired that way from ford so i just kept it that way. if you put your positive lead to the hot side of the starter solenoid,and ground it on the other side, it will seek a ground through the starter motor coil, the same as putting a testlight inline of a battery and a lightbulb or fan motor. The way that fender solenoid works is when you put power to the s stud, the coil inside it pushes the contactor into the back of those two studs and closes the circuit, so polarity isnt an issue, it really should technically be called a relay, as it is using a low amprage circuit to control a high amprage circuit. It sounds to me like you may have a bad battery or starter. When you toutch that 10 ga wire to the battery to engage the starter, you are by-passing that fender relay completely. If the starter has a good ground and a good power source, then applying 12 volts to that little wire should make it crank.

Did you start that engine before you took it out of the dodge? Can you rotate it with a braker-bar?
Whats the battery voltage?

if you want to check the starter by its self run the positive cable from the battery directly to the starter, run the ground to the engine block from the bettery and put 12 volts to the little wire on the starter, if it dosent turn over something is wrong with it.

MY STARTER IS BAD. I just got my starter out and tested it. Nothing happened when I put a positive end to the large stud (battery cable), but when I put it to the small stud (10ga. wire) it shot the rod out, but didn't spin...I'll have a new one in the morning.

Sorry for the crappy phone video qualityhttp://i438.photobucket.com/albums/q...0720111309.jpg

Try hooking the hot wire up to the big terminal on the starter while in that test position, then run a small jumper to the small terminal. You have to have juice to both in order for it to pop out AND spin.

The big terminal on the starter provides power to the starter motor, but there is an internal solenoid with the starter bendix (I believe that's starter terminology) which is what the small terminal on the starter powers. Once juice is sent to that small terminal, it pops out the starter gear and makes contact inside the starter for the big terminal to juice the starter motor and spin it. If that makes sense...

I tried jumping both and it still wouldn't spin. Plus when I pulled the starter out of the truck it had a strong burnt smell.

whats a new starter when your putting a cummins in aford anyway:humm: are we ready for the alternator yet?

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Brand new starter. Charged my battery last night. Nothing. :argh: This may be a really dumb question, but does my tach wire need to be hooked up in order for this truck to fire correctly??

No! All you need is 12 volt to your pump and 12volt to starter and it will run. I just sold a 12v this winter and i started it sitting on the ground with a pair of jumper cables and a funnel of fuel to the pump. Very simple engine. ANd later down the road when you crank up the pump and blow out your fss you wont even need power to the motor once it is running its a beautiful thing cause then you can put in a sweet pull cable to kill your cummings instead of using a key!:jump:

so is it cranking at a normal speed? if it is, verify you have 12+ at your injector pump solenoid, if you do, i suspect air in the fuel system, since you pulled the engine and all.
first thing, what are you using for a fuel source? the firdt thing you do is pull the steel line of the discharge of your lift pump and pump the hand primer until fuel squirts out. then from there, remove the spin on fuel filter, see how much fuel is in it, if its empty, thats a problem. fill it up with fuel, put it back on, then crack open your first 4 fuel line at the injectors, this will bleed the air out of the lines. once fuel starts spraying out, tighten them back up if all is working right it should start up and run rough for a bit and then straighten out. How much experience/understanding do you have with mechanical diesels, im only asking so i dont assume you know something already and then confuse you.

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and by the way somebody tell me my avatar looks just like my truck so i feel like i did a good job

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Your avatar is awesome, defintely looks like your truck :tu: I made one similar a long time ago that looked like mine but it had my old roll bar and KC Daylighters on it. Bouncing trucks I think?

I have little knowledge about the mechanicals diesels, I have a buddy who's a diesel mechanic for Ryder, I usually learn from him or through my own research. We all gotta start somewhere!

It's not cranking at all. I turn the key and it doesn't do anything. No clicks, no sparks - nothing. I went ahead and replaced my fuel filter w/ Wix and primed the system, though I haven't cracked the injector lines, just the lift pump. I'm guessing something is going on with my Ford solenoid, or the start wire on the solenoid :humm: I'm so close, yet so far.

I was checkin that out thought it was pretty awesome :rocking:

well for now forget the key, just work under the hood, if you put 12 volts to the ford fender relay s terminal with a jumper wire, it should crank, once we get the engine running we can fuck with that.

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i drew that bitch in ms paint!:yeah:

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and for forgive me because im drunk now, but i want us all to from this point on to refer to it from now on to a starter relay because technically it is a really a relay not a solenoid be:rocking::rocking::rocking::rocking::rocking::ro cking:

I believe I have found the culprit: My "S" wire. With the key on CRANK, my test lights shows nothing. With the clutch pedal in and key on CRANK, my test light still does not light up. From a video I watched it is either:
Ignition Switch (changed in July 2009)
Safety Neutral Switch (Don't have an auto trans)
Clutch switch (I unplugged a wire that went to my 4 speed....:humm:)
Wiring (Wiring is correct)
Not In Park (Don't have an auto trans)
Clutch is not depressed (Tried with and still no crank)

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Also, I tried to switch my starter cable and battery cables around on the poles for the starter relay so it looked like yours, and when I went to put the ground cable on my battery, the starter wanted to click like it was starting, but the key was OFF.

that switch on the trans is probably the reverse light switch, double check the cluch switch and make sure you have a good ground to the body and engine, more important than the frame. you could always just use a push button for the starter/ hot wire in and load hooked to the "S" terminal on starter relay on fender/or/ on starter itself.

I saw a video on youtube this morning that had that setup:

I'm thinking this is my only other option besides going crazy with this ignition.

dude , we can fix it, did your truck have an auto trans or manual before? iwant you to get5b it to run first then we can we can wirry abi=out where the starter signal comes from. if i have to i will rip out my ignition switch so i can tell you what wire to use. the actual ignition switch on your truck is down at he bottom of the colum. where do you live? if you were in austin i would just come help yopu. my spelling looks fuct.been on river all day:c:

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when you turn the key on do the dash lights come on, do the headlight work? if not thenthe body needs a ground..:rocking::rocking::rocking::rocking:

It had a manual transmission before (Borg Warner T18 4 speed)

When I turn the key on, the dash lights work, headlights work, radio works. BUT when I crank the key, NOTHING happens.

I replaced my ignition switch on the column just 2 years ago.

I live near Asheville, NC.

Sounds like the only thing you are missing is the clutch switch,

if you look under the dash on the clutch pedal linkage there is a switch on the plunger that pushes the clutch master cylinder with a connector on it that has about 4 or so wires on it, that it where the starter circuit is wired, look for power under there when you crank it, hell it may have come unpluged when you tore the truck apart.

Checked the clutch switch and nothing looked out of place, I went back and checked all my fuses under the dash too and all the fuses are fine.

well shit!!!:argh::argh::argh:

I back tracked to last week and remembered how I had it wired then. I drew a diagram of, so maybe this can solve my problem. Please note that when it was hooked up like this, the key only had to be ON, not fully to CRANK. And my lights, radios didnt work unless the key was ON as well. When I turned the key to OFF the engine would shut off, but I could still hear my starter spinning inside for a few seconds after the engine had already shut off. I'm thinking that the blue wire and the red wire both need to be hooked up or it will not work...When the blue wire was connected to the (+) battery terminal, my ENGINE light would be constantly on, even with the key out of the ignition, and when you poked it on the terminal, you could see my guage cluster flicker a bit. When the red wire was hooked to the (+) battery terminal, the ENGINE light only came on when the key was ON, and it did not mess with my guages inside. So here is the diagram of how it ran last week....

Attachment 40864

dont do that. the way you have the fender relay wired would directly short the pos and neg posts of the battery to eachother if you ever put power to the s terminal. The fender relay is not designed to operate that way, I dont know how it ran like that, because there is no power shown going to the IP, if you did wire the way you have shown, it should start cranking the engine and if it started the starter would just stay engaged until it burnt up. wire it the way I drew it and then figure out how to get 12 volts to the s terminal on the fender relay when you turn the key to the start position. but the way you have it now is asking for a fire and burning the shit out of your hands when try to rip the battery cable off once it starts cranking and wont stop.

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this is how that relay works internally. if you put power and ground to the large studs and engage it by putting power to the s stud, it will energize the coil and the plunger will close the contacts and weld itself together and possibly blow up your battery.

try wiring in a temp push button.1-10 ga. wire to each side of the starter "relay" on the fender.Get it to turn over,then worry about the ign. A mechanical diesel is a simple engine. 1.make it spin
2.add fuel and air
3. It should go BANG!:w2::dang:

I wired it back the way you had it Cumminsf150, the key still won't do anything, and when I try to jump it from the relay on the fender, the starter clicks but nothing else happens, and this is a brand new starter, battery. :argh:

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Upon further investigation with this wiring issuse, I went back and decided to check my grounds. I have 3 wires going to my ground battery terminal. 2 are together and the other is by itself. Both wires go through a fuse or something before the battery. This is what I found :td:

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So I went and looked up a diagram for the harness and this is what I found...
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I don't what to do, is this an easy fix or should I prepare a blue tarp?:(

you are getting ahead of yourself, forget all that crap with the ecm, the ford harness all of it. that engine will start and run with 3 wires. get the engine to run by itself before you try to mess with the truck harness.

start over , you have new battery, new cables, if your starter is hooked directly to the battery with the large stud and the engine is grounded to the battery, and you run a jumper wire to the little stud on the starter and connect it to the battery, it should turn the engine. once you get it to do that, put power to the injector pump fuel solenoid, and crank it again. that should start your engine and run.

then back to your fender relay, remember when you said smoke poured out of it? it might not work now, and that might be why the starter just clicks, but dont even mess with that until you get the engine to run by itself.

you will not need the ecm or any of the related wiring, the gagues in the dash have their own circuits your oil and water will be one wire sending units, the two wires for your 2 gagues, a wire to your injector pump that has power when the key is on, and some kind of signal to your fender relay are all you need for this.

if you can get the engine to run, we can use a pushbutton start later.

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by the way the ecm wouldn't have a ground with the plug ripped out of it because it grounds through the plug, which is unplugged. you dont need the ecm rip it out and throw it out the window of whatever you are driving while your truck dosent work.

SHE RUNS!!! :jump:

I did exactly what you said and she fired right up.

So what do I need to do now? haha