Urea
#41
07-28-2009, 10:33 PM
Diesel Bomber
Urea or diesel emission fluid or adBLUE - all the same thing. This is the best and most efficient way to get those emissions down. Using a DPF without this is a mistake. The 2010 OTR's will all have this as will Dodge 3500, 4500 and 5500 cab chassis models. I can not confirm if the 2010 Dodge pickup will have it or not but it has been used in this exact form in the EU now for 15 years and works very well.
With Ford just using the EGR and GMC trying to figure out what to do next with the Duramax program I think it is only a matter of time before this becomes common place.
I read in diesel progress that older trucks are being forced to install this equipment to the tune of $9500 + per unit - that's the scary thing. This thought will only take a few more years and all of the light and medium duty pickups will be forced to do the same or park it I'm sure. I don't like that at all.
is thatWith Ford just using the EGR and GMC trying to figure out what to do next with the Duramax program I think it is only a matter of time before this becomes common place.
I read in diesel progress that older trucks are being forced to install this equipment to the tune of $9500 + per unit - that's the scary thing. This thought will only take a few more years and all of the light and medium duty pickups will be forced to do the same or park it I'm sure. I don't like that at all.
#42
07-28-2009, 10:52 PM
when they require all the light duty pickups to start retrofitting with emmisions controls that is when there is gonna be problem... i have a feeling some one will step forward and start countering all these statements by EPA and global warming effiecenado's (thats right begle i can use big words too 
)
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#43
07-29-2009, 09:20 AM
Diesel Bomber
We saw the same resistance to the electronic pump vs. mechanical and the same still with computer controlled vs. electronic. This is just another moderization that we will have to just get used to. The diesel is still more efficient, still is cleaner and is still a better investment than a gasser and all these "controls" are doing is taking away our smoke. The DEF on a SCR system is the way to go - a DPF and EGR only is not.
#44
07-29-2009, 10:12 AM
Diesel Bomber
#45
07-29-2009, 10:44 AM
Diesel Bomber
As far as I know, which admittedly is only enough to be dangerous, it is part of the new Tier 2 and Tier 3 combustion emissions requirements. There is no longer a difference between fuels and what is the worry to some is the Tier 3 - that's what this re/re of old equipment is if I'm not mistaken and it is to take effect in 2013 or so I think. Again, I'm not 100% (yet).
SCR or Selective Cat Reduction is the heading for all of this. It includes EGR, DEF, DPF, and all sensors in place. It involves higher engine temps, higher RPMs, multiple injection events and other such things, some of which we already deal with. I don't think advancing any timing has a place in this, in fact I would think they would retard the timing some if anything since advanced timing tends to smoke.
This is the reason CAT got out of OTR, the reason why MACK is struggling and the reason why Volvo is trying desperately to get something to work. MTU, Cummins and MAK have all got something for their applicable OTR and marine applications. I think CAT is working on something for the off road applications but I am not 100%. Izuzu, Subaru, Mitsubishi and International are all in the mix there somewhere.
Ford / Navistar claim they can meet 2010 (although officially unproven at this stage) with EGR only systems but if this turns into as big a problem as the 6.0L or they in fact do go completely seperate ways with the 6.1L (scorpion?) it spell the end. GM, again as far as I know at this time does not have a proven 2010 emissions system hence the end of the DMAX as we know it. Dodge and Cummins have something that sort of works with the 6.7L EGR, DPF or EGR, DEF, DPF depending on weight class but it remains unproven for real world environments as well. If it uses the DEF it is a carry over of the Benz AdBLUE system which has 15 years of success. If it is the same 6.7L with the DPF only then this is a mess and should be avoided for anyone that can't run that engine hard as the regens will just kill you.
All european cars and trucks (Volvo, BMW, MB, VW, Audi, Land Rover and others) all use DEF and it works. We can't reinvent the wheel here and must figure out how to use it, get more power from it and above all else get our economy back.
End of rant.
SCR or Selective Cat Reduction is the heading for all of this. It includes EGR, DEF, DPF, and all sensors in place. It involves higher engine temps, higher RPMs, multiple injection events and other such things, some of which we already deal with. I don't think advancing any timing has a place in this, in fact I would think they would retard the timing some if anything since advanced timing tends to smoke.
This is the reason CAT got out of OTR, the reason why MACK is struggling and the reason why Volvo is trying desperately to get something to work. MTU, Cummins and MAK have all got something for their applicable OTR and marine applications. I think CAT is working on something for the off road applications but I am not 100%. Izuzu, Subaru, Mitsubishi and International are all in the mix there somewhere.
Ford / Navistar claim they can meet 2010 (although officially unproven at this stage) with EGR only systems but if this turns into as big a problem as the 6.0L or they in fact do go completely seperate ways with the 6.1L (scorpion?) it spell the end. GM, again as far as I know at this time does not have a proven 2010 emissions system hence the end of the DMAX as we know it. Dodge and Cummins have something that sort of works with the 6.7L EGR, DPF or EGR, DEF, DPF depending on weight class but it remains unproven for real world environments as well. If it uses the DEF it is a carry over of the Benz AdBLUE system which has 15 years of success. If it is the same 6.7L with the DPF only then this is a mess and should be avoided for anyone that can't run that engine hard as the regens will just kill you.
All european cars and trucks (Volvo, BMW, MB, VW, Audi, Land Rover and others) all use DEF and it works. We can't reinvent the wheel here and must figure out how to use it, get more power from it and above all else get our economy back.
End of rant.
#47
07-29-2009, 12:36 PM
SCR or Selective Cat Reduction is the heading for all of this. It includes EGR, DEF, DPF, and all sensors in place. It involves higher engine temps, higher RPMs, multiple injection events and other such things, some of which we already deal with. I don't think advancing any timing has a place in this, in fact I would think they would retard the timing some if anything since advanced timing tends to smoke.
Ford / Navistar claim they can meet 2010 (although officially unproven at this stage) with EGR only systems but if this turns into as big a problem as the 6.0L or they in fact do go completely seperate ways with the 6.1L (scorpion?) it spell the end. GM, again as far as I know at this time does not have a proven 2010 emissions system hence the end of the DMAX as we know it. Dodge and Cummins have something that sort of works with the 6.7L EGR, DPF or EGR, DEF, DPF depending on weight class but it remains unproven for real world environments as well. If it uses the DEF it is a carry over of the Benz AdBLUE system which has 15 years of success. If it is the same 6.7L with the DPF only then this is a mess and should be avoided for anyone that can't run that engine hard as the regens will just kill you.
All european cars and trucks (Volvo, BMW, MB, VW, Audi, Land Rover and others) all use DEF and it works. We can't reinvent the wheel here and must figure out how to use it, get more power from it and above all else get our economy back.
End of rant.
Ford / Navistar claim they can meet 2010 (although officially unproven at this stage) with EGR only systems but if this turns into as big a problem as the 6.0L or they in fact do go completely seperate ways with the 6.1L (scorpion?) it spell the end. GM, again as far as I know at this time does not have a proven 2010 emissions system hence the end of the DMAX as we know it. Dodge and Cummins have something that sort of works with the 6.7L EGR, DPF or EGR, DEF, DPF depending on weight class but it remains unproven for real world environments as well. If it uses the DEF it is a carry over of the Benz AdBLUE system which has 15 years of success. If it is the same 6.7L with the DPF only then this is a mess and should be avoided for anyone that can't run that engine hard as the regens will just kill you.
All european cars and trucks (Volvo, BMW, MB, VW, Audi, Land Rover and others) all use DEF and it works. We can't reinvent the wheel here and must figure out how to use it, get more power from it and above all else get our economy back.
End of rant.
Advancing the timing almost always decreases smoke; it gives the fuel more time to burn. It tends to increase NOx though.
Cummins has been using urea in Europe for years, I believe they'll all outsourced units though.
Engines with DPF's should regen considerably less if they are ran hard.
Are you sure that the urea reaction generates enough heat to regen a DPF? I would believe it, but I haven't heard anything about urea injection obsoleting active regens.
#48
07-29-2009, 01:51 PM
Diesel Bomber
SCR is a complete system not just the DPF. On everything I have ever advanced timing on the smoke has always increased but that is only my experience. Everyone uses Urea in the EU and it is all versions of MB adBLUE system.
Based on what I have read in diesel progress and info from Benz etc. the reaction doesn't generate any more heat. In fact the advantage of using DEF is that it enables the engine to use less EGR and higher oxygen levels, offering more efficient combustion. Using less EGR runs the truck cooler, gets higher mileage values and run more trouble free (ie: less regeneration).
Based on what I have read in diesel progress and info from Benz etc. the reaction doesn't generate any more heat. In fact the advantage of using DEF is that it enables the engine to use less EGR and higher oxygen levels, offering more efficient combustion. Using less EGR runs the truck cooler, gets higher mileage values and run more trouble free (ie: less regeneration).
#49
07-29-2009, 08:20 PM
Urea modifies the traditional catalytic reduction in a catalytic converter, I imagine that it still generates heat. But it's heat after the catalytic converter, not relating to the engine. Every setup I have seen has the DPF after the catalytic converter, presumably for the sake of providing more heat to passively regenerate the DPF. The way I've heard the term SCR used refers to the catalyst and chemical injection- it's a different system from the DPF; a lot of industrial processes use SCR without a DPF. You can have a DPF, SCR or both. SCR fights NOx, DPF's fight particulates.
Selective catalytic reduction - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
If SCR does allow producers to cut back on EGR flow, it will cause an increase in cylinder temperatures, which will allow less particulates to be produced and aid in the passive regeneration of the DPF.
I want to see these systems... How tamperproof can they be?
Selective catalytic reduction - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
If SCR does allow producers to cut back on EGR flow, it will cause an increase in cylinder temperatures, which will allow less particulates to be produced and aid in the passive regeneration of the DPF.
I want to see these systems... How tamperproof can they be?
