"The" 2 Stroke Oil Thread
#71
02-23-2008, 11:22 PM
#72
02-24-2008, 08:58 AM
Diesel Wrench
Nothing wrong with it... Actually over at CF.com it was recommended to use the unverisal 2 cycle oil but it only came in small bottles...
If you live up north in cold country I would look for the snowmobile oil its got a much lower pour point over standard 2 cycle oil. It acts like a anti-gel product quite well...
If you live up north in cold country I would look for the snowmobile oil its got a much lower pour point over standard 2 cycle oil. It acts like a anti-gel product quite well...
The following users liked this post:
K50 (01-14-2009)
#74
02-24-2008, 12:58 PM
Diesel Wrench
The following users liked this post:
Nitelord (02-25-2008)
#76
02-26-2008, 06:23 PM
the 2 cycle facts are always good to know Michael...thanks
Factors Affecting 2 Cycle Oil Performance
Design Concept
The 2 cycle oil concept was developed for LSD (Low Sulfur Diesel) designed trucks. (Pre 2007)
DON'T USE 2 CYCLE OIL IN A ULSD DESIGNED VEHICLE!
DON'T USE 2 CYCLE OIL IN A VEHICLE WITH A DPF!
SUGGESTED NOT USE 2 CYCLE OIL IN A VEHICLE WITH A CAT!
Mixing Ratio
Under/Over Dose.
1989 - 2002 Dodge Cummins (1st Gen, 2nd Gen 12V, and 2nd Gen 24V)
128:1 Is the suggested amount of oil to add to the fuel. 1 ounce of oil for every 1 gallon of fuel. Overdosing will result in loss of performance and MPG. I've tested as low as 105:1 with out a loss. Beyond 100:1 ratio will result in a performance loss.
2003 - 2006 3rd Generation Cummins Common Rail
200:1 ratio is suggested maximum with 3rd Generation Common Rail Cummins engines. Don't use more than 200:1 ratio or reduced power will result.
1989 - 2002 Dodge Cummins (1st Gen, 2nd Gen 12V, and 2nd Gen 24V)
100:1 128:1 200:1
Maximum Suggested Minimum
2003 - 2006 Cummins 3rd Generation Common Rail
200:1 200:1 256:1
Maximum Suggested Minimum
Refer to the Ratio Calculator for proper mixing quantities.
Not measuring proper amount of oil to fuel.
Every time you get fuel you get different amount of fuel you should always measure the proper amount of 2 cycle oil to the fuel. Always mix to the proper ratio for your vehicle.
Refer to the Ratio Calculator for proper mixing quantities.
Mixing With Other Additives
Cetane Boosters
Cetane booster tend to reduce the BTU's of the fuel causing a reduction in MPG. Most people start reporting loss in MPG's cause by the 2 Cycle Oil. Actually it the cetane booster. Every winter when cetane level are high (>45 Cetane) most people report a loss of 2-3 MPG. There is cetane booster in the winterized fuels. So cetane booster will degrade the performance of the 2 Cycle Oil as well.
Refer to the BTU Values, Chemical Definitions, and MSDS sheets for more information.
Injection Cleaners
Injection Cleaners tend to degrade the HFRR score of 2 Cycle Oil and fuel rapidly. Being that most cleaners are of a solvent base and contain very little if any lubricants. Most of these products scored below minimum Government Standards (>520 HFRR) These are not recommended and might cause fuel system damage.
Refer to the BTU Values, Chemical Definitions, and MSDS sheets for more information.
I would highly suggest you upgrade you fuel filter to 2 micron filter to protect your fuel system. All 24V 2nd Generation Cummins have what know as a Edge Filter to protect the injectors from plugging.
Quoted From Dodge's Factory Service Manual (2nd Gen VP44 and 3rd Gen CR)
Each fuel injector connector tube contains an edge filter (Fig. 13) that breaks up small contaminants that enter the injector. The edge filter uses the injectors pulsating high-pressure to break up most particles so they are small enough to pass through the injector.
Anti-Gels (Pour Point Depressants)
Anti-Gels typically are produced from a solvent based stock or K1 Kerosene in any case a Anti-Gel product is much lower in BTU's and will degrade the lubricity of the 2 cycle oil as well as the BTU content. Typically a high performance snowmobile oil has a pour point depressant in it to prevent gelling of the lubricant at extremely low temps so its a excellent anti-gel additive.
Refer to the BTU Values, Chemical Definitions, and MSDS sheets for more information.
Under/Over Dose of fuel additive with 2 Cycle Oil.
Under or Overdosing is rather common. I hear of many cases where people mix equal part of both a fuel additive and 2 cycle oil together. This is completely wrong and should never be done. Always follow the direction of the fuel additive and add the correct amount of product t to the amount of fuel added to the fuel tank. DON'T GUESS!
Refer to the HFRR page for ratio amounts for common products.
Refer to the Ratio Calculator for proper mixing quantities.
Mixing with 2 Cycle Oil with a poor lubricant
You should never mix 2 Cycle Oil with a poor lubricant which is greater than the HFFR of the 2 cycle oil. All your doing is thinning out the lubricity of the oil with a strong solvent make it null and void. Like a great example of this is adding diesel fuel (Fuel Additive) to the engine oil (Diesel Fuel). We all know this spells certain failure of the engine. This is exactly what your doing with high numbers HFRR additives and your fuel system.
Refer to the HFRR page for HFRR scoring for common products.
Overhead Computer Vs. Hand Calculation
Overhead Computers in most trucks are not capable of being calibrated to the fuel and/or timing MOD's in a truck. So there is always a range of error to the overhead computer. This also holds true if there has been any changes to the driveline. All MPG should be calculated by hand. Here is example of my fuel records over time. Most people show about 2-3 MPG plus or minus difference between hand calculation and Overhead Computer in the Dodge Trucks. If you want to measurement on the fly fuel mileage with a accurate device I would recommend a ScanGauge II.
Weather Changes
Temperatures
Temperatures play a extremely important role in effects of MPG and performance of 2 cycle oil. During the winter time air might nice and cold for the engine to run on. But you got to remember if the air is more dense its also greater drag on the entire truck as well. Gear lubes and transmission fluids are much thicker. This will usually degrade the MPG numbers make sure your running the proper lubricants in your driveline. Winterized fuel also will degrade the MPG numbers as well.
Winds (Headwind or Tailwinds)
Head winds and tail winds will effect the performance of the truck as well. This is a forgotten factor when evaluation of the 2 cycle oil performance.
Factors Affecting 2 Cycle Oil Performance
Design Concept
The 2 cycle oil concept was developed for LSD (Low Sulfur Diesel) designed trucks. (Pre 2007)
DON'T USE 2 CYCLE OIL IN A ULSD DESIGNED VEHICLE!
DON'T USE 2 CYCLE OIL IN A VEHICLE WITH A DPF!
SUGGESTED NOT USE 2 CYCLE OIL IN A VEHICLE WITH A CAT!
Mixing Ratio
Under/Over Dose.
1989 - 2002 Dodge Cummins (1st Gen, 2nd Gen 12V, and 2nd Gen 24V)
128:1 Is the suggested amount of oil to add to the fuel. 1 ounce of oil for every 1 gallon of fuel. Overdosing will result in loss of performance and MPG. I've tested as low as 105:1 with out a loss. Beyond 100:1 ratio will result in a performance loss.
2003 - 2006 3rd Generation Cummins Common Rail
200:1 ratio is suggested maximum with 3rd Generation Common Rail Cummins engines. Don't use more than 200:1 ratio or reduced power will result.
1989 - 2002 Dodge Cummins (1st Gen, 2nd Gen 12V, and 2nd Gen 24V)
100:1 128:1 200:1
Maximum Suggested Minimum
2003 - 2006 Cummins 3rd Generation Common Rail
200:1 200:1 256:1
Maximum Suggested Minimum
Refer to the Ratio Calculator for proper mixing quantities.
Not measuring proper amount of oil to fuel.
Every time you get fuel you get different amount of fuel you should always measure the proper amount of 2 cycle oil to the fuel. Always mix to the proper ratio for your vehicle.
Refer to the Ratio Calculator for proper mixing quantities.
Mixing With Other Additives
Cetane Boosters
Cetane booster tend to reduce the BTU's of the fuel causing a reduction in MPG. Most people start reporting loss in MPG's cause by the 2 Cycle Oil. Actually it the cetane booster. Every winter when cetane level are high (>45 Cetane) most people report a loss of 2-3 MPG. There is cetane booster in the winterized fuels. So cetane booster will degrade the performance of the 2 Cycle Oil as well.
Refer to the BTU Values, Chemical Definitions, and MSDS sheets for more information.
Injection Cleaners
Injection Cleaners tend to degrade the HFRR score of 2 Cycle Oil and fuel rapidly. Being that most cleaners are of a solvent base and contain very little if any lubricants. Most of these products scored below minimum Government Standards (>520 HFRR) These are not recommended and might cause fuel system damage.
Refer to the BTU Values, Chemical Definitions, and MSDS sheets for more information.
I would highly suggest you upgrade you fuel filter to 2 micron filter to protect your fuel system. All 24V 2nd Generation Cummins have what know as a Edge Filter to protect the injectors from plugging.
Quoted From Dodge's Factory Service Manual (2nd Gen VP44 and 3rd Gen CR)
Each fuel injector connector tube contains an edge filter (Fig. 13) that breaks up small contaminants that enter the injector. The edge filter uses the injectors pulsating high-pressure to break up most particles so they are small enough to pass through the injector.
Anti-Gels (Pour Point Depressants)
Anti-Gels typically are produced from a solvent based stock or K1 Kerosene in any case a Anti-Gel product is much lower in BTU's and will degrade the lubricity of the 2 cycle oil as well as the BTU content. Typically a high performance snowmobile oil has a pour point depressant in it to prevent gelling of the lubricant at extremely low temps so its a excellent anti-gel additive.
Refer to the BTU Values, Chemical Definitions, and MSDS sheets for more information.
Under/Over Dose of fuel additive with 2 Cycle Oil.
Under or Overdosing is rather common. I hear of many cases where people mix equal part of both a fuel additive and 2 cycle oil together. This is completely wrong and should never be done. Always follow the direction of the fuel additive and add the correct amount of product t to the amount of fuel added to the fuel tank. DON'T GUESS!
Refer to the HFRR page for ratio amounts for common products.
Refer to the Ratio Calculator for proper mixing quantities.
Mixing with 2 Cycle Oil with a poor lubricant
You should never mix 2 Cycle Oil with a poor lubricant which is greater than the HFFR of the 2 cycle oil. All your doing is thinning out the lubricity of the oil with a strong solvent make it null and void. Like a great example of this is adding diesel fuel (Fuel Additive) to the engine oil (Diesel Fuel). We all know this spells certain failure of the engine. This is exactly what your doing with high numbers HFRR additives and your fuel system.
Refer to the HFRR page for HFRR scoring for common products.
Overhead Computer Vs. Hand Calculation
Overhead Computers in most trucks are not capable of being calibrated to the fuel and/or timing MOD's in a truck. So there is always a range of error to the overhead computer. This also holds true if there has been any changes to the driveline. All MPG should be calculated by hand. Here is example of my fuel records over time. Most people show about 2-3 MPG plus or minus difference between hand calculation and Overhead Computer in the Dodge Trucks. If you want to measurement on the fly fuel mileage with a accurate device I would recommend a ScanGauge II.
Weather Changes
Temperatures
Temperatures play a extremely important role in effects of MPG and performance of 2 cycle oil. During the winter time air might nice and cold for the engine to run on. But you got to remember if the air is more dense its also greater drag on the entire truck as well. Gear lubes and transmission fluids are much thicker. This will usually degrade the MPG numbers make sure your running the proper lubricants in your driveline. Winterized fuel also will degrade the MPG numbers as well.
Winds (Headwind or Tailwinds)
Head winds and tail winds will effect the performance of the truck as well. This is a forgotten factor when evaluation of the 2 cycle oil performance.
The following 3 users liked this post by Whit:
#77
02-26-2008, 06:24 PM
Road Conditions
Rain Flooded, Snow packed / Slushy
Rain flooded, Slushy, snow packed roads can reduce the MPG number considerably. not only is it a drag on the truck but it create more drag by cooling transmission, transfer case and axle fluids. This tend to thick the fluids and create more drag. Make sure your using the proper fluids in your driveline for the current weather conditions.
Speedometer/Odometer Errors
Oversized Tires / Driveline Changes
Modifications to the driveline, wheels, and tires can offset the odometer by 2%-10% depending of your modifications done. If this is true you need to recalibrate your exist speedometer by having it flashed by a dealer or a programmer like Smarty. If this isn't available use a a GPS and/or a ScanGauge II to get accurate mileage numbers.
2WD / 4WD Operation
4WD operation tend to reduce the MPG.
Changes In Fuel Quality
BioDiesel (B2 to B100)
BioDiesel is becoming a standard. But Cummins doesn't recommend using anything stronger than B2 for fuels. BIoFuels are better lubricity quality than 2 cycle oil and don't require 2 cycle oil or lubricant to be added. Be aware that anything above B5 will VOID your warranty on your truck.
Winter Fuels (High Cetane >45)
Winterized #2 Diesel and #1 Diesel are usually are treat properly for the winter weather expected. But remember all winterized fuels are much lower in BTU's and will reduce your overall MPG's.
Summer Fuels (Low Cetane <45)
Summer fuels usually will show the greatest performance. There is no reason to be adding a cetane booster with summer fuels!
Off Road Fuels / Farm Storage
I don't suggest or recommend using farm storage fuels and off-road fuels. First off off-road fuel (RED FUEL) is ILLEGAL for on highway use. Second off most farm storage is usually been standing for several months. This might have problems like algae growth, wrong type of fuel for the season, etc.
Overall Quality Of Fuel
Today there is all kind of different fuel out there. Every fuel has pluses and minuses to them. Some are more expensive and of better quality and other are rather cheap and cheaply made too. Quality of the fuel has a direct bearing on the performance of 2 cycle oil.
Changes In Operation Of The Vehicle
Drivers
Change in drivers and driving style can greatly enhance or degrade the results of the 2 cycle oil. Like the difference between husband and wife driving styles.
Speed
Excessive speed will reduce MPG greatly. MPG normally degrade rapidly at 55 MPH or greater.
Load Weight & Towing
Changes in loading weight of cargo of the truck will effect the MPG number.
In Town and/or Highway Operation
In-Town driving usually result in reduced MPG over highway travel.
BOMB's & MOD's
Existing Fueling and/or Timing MOD's
Improper use of fueling and timing will result in reduced MPGs. Please consult the owners manual of the product. Or contact the manufacture directly and get advise for proper settings.
Overall Maintenance / Existing Failure
IP / LP Pump
Condition of the existing fuel system is failing and/or damage will certainly result and degrading of performance and MPG's. Repair the problem and re-evaluate.
Refer to Fuel Pump Diagnostics for support.
Refer to Checking for Error Codes for support
Injectors
Faulty injectors will degrade performance. Please correct and re-evaluate.
Air Filter & Fuel Filter
Condition of the air and fuel filters has a direct bearing of performance. Please correct and re-evaluate.
Refer to Maintenance Schedules for support.
Refer to Fuel Pump Diagnostics for support.
Tires Condition / Proper Inflation
Improperly inflated tires will cause a degrading in performance. Please correct and re-evaluate. Typical tire pressure is about 45-65 PSI. Please consult your owner manual for proper tire pressures.
Brake(s) Dragging
Dragging brake shoes and/or pads will degrade the performance rapidly. Please correct and re-evaluate.
Clutch / Torque Converter / Transmission
Dodge automatic transmissions have been known weak link in the driveline. If you have driveline issue please correct it then re-evaluate
Sensor Failure / Performance
Sensors have been known to fail without warning or fail within normal operating range. In this case there is no error code produced. Verify that all engine sensors are operating properly and re-evaluate.
Refer to MAP Sensor Cleaning for support
Refer to IAT Sensor Cleaning and Testing for support
Pre-Existing Abuse
If the truck was abused by a previous owner/driver... 2 cycle oil isn't going to correct that... Please correct and re-evaluate.
Rain Flooded, Snow packed / Slushy
Rain flooded, Slushy, snow packed roads can reduce the MPG number considerably. not only is it a drag on the truck but it create more drag by cooling transmission, transfer case and axle fluids. This tend to thick the fluids and create more drag. Make sure your using the proper fluids in your driveline for the current weather conditions.
Speedometer/Odometer Errors
Oversized Tires / Driveline Changes
Modifications to the driveline, wheels, and tires can offset the odometer by 2%-10% depending of your modifications done. If this is true you need to recalibrate your exist speedometer by having it flashed by a dealer or a programmer like Smarty. If this isn't available use a a GPS and/or a ScanGauge II to get accurate mileage numbers.
2WD / 4WD Operation
4WD operation tend to reduce the MPG.
Changes In Fuel Quality
BioDiesel (B2 to B100)
BioDiesel is becoming a standard. But Cummins doesn't recommend using anything stronger than B2 for fuels. BIoFuels are better lubricity quality than 2 cycle oil and don't require 2 cycle oil or lubricant to be added. Be aware that anything above B5 will VOID your warranty on your truck.
Winter Fuels (High Cetane >45)
Winterized #2 Diesel and #1 Diesel are usually are treat properly for the winter weather expected. But remember all winterized fuels are much lower in BTU's and will reduce your overall MPG's.
Summer Fuels (Low Cetane <45)
Summer fuels usually will show the greatest performance. There is no reason to be adding a cetane booster with summer fuels!
Off Road Fuels / Farm Storage
I don't suggest or recommend using farm storage fuels and off-road fuels. First off off-road fuel (RED FUEL) is ILLEGAL for on highway use. Second off most farm storage is usually been standing for several months. This might have problems like algae growth, wrong type of fuel for the season, etc.
Overall Quality Of Fuel
Today there is all kind of different fuel out there. Every fuel has pluses and minuses to them. Some are more expensive and of better quality and other are rather cheap and cheaply made too. Quality of the fuel has a direct bearing on the performance of 2 cycle oil.
Changes In Operation Of The Vehicle
Drivers
Change in drivers and driving style can greatly enhance or degrade the results of the 2 cycle oil. Like the difference between husband and wife driving styles.
Speed
Excessive speed will reduce MPG greatly. MPG normally degrade rapidly at 55 MPH or greater.
Load Weight & Towing
Changes in loading weight of cargo of the truck will effect the MPG number.
In Town and/or Highway Operation
In-Town driving usually result in reduced MPG over highway travel.
BOMB's & MOD's
Existing Fueling and/or Timing MOD's
Improper use of fueling and timing will result in reduced MPGs. Please consult the owners manual of the product. Or contact the manufacture directly and get advise for proper settings.
Overall Maintenance / Existing Failure
IP / LP Pump
Condition of the existing fuel system is failing and/or damage will certainly result and degrading of performance and MPG's. Repair the problem and re-evaluate.
Refer to Fuel Pump Diagnostics for support.
Refer to Checking for Error Codes for support
Injectors
Faulty injectors will degrade performance. Please correct and re-evaluate.
Air Filter & Fuel Filter
Condition of the air and fuel filters has a direct bearing of performance. Please correct and re-evaluate.
Refer to Maintenance Schedules for support.
Refer to Fuel Pump Diagnostics for support.
Tires Condition / Proper Inflation
Improperly inflated tires will cause a degrading in performance. Please correct and re-evaluate. Typical tire pressure is about 45-65 PSI. Please consult your owner manual for proper tire pressures.
Brake(s) Dragging
Dragging brake shoes and/or pads will degrade the performance rapidly. Please correct and re-evaluate.
Clutch / Torque Converter / Transmission
Dodge automatic transmissions have been known weak link in the driveline. If you have driveline issue please correct it then re-evaluate
Sensor Failure / Performance
Sensors have been known to fail without warning or fail within normal operating range. In this case there is no error code produced. Verify that all engine sensors are operating properly and re-evaluate.
Refer to MAP Sensor Cleaning for support
Refer to IAT Sensor Cleaning and Testing for support
Pre-Existing Abuse
If the truck was abused by a previous owner/driver... 2 cycle oil isn't going to correct that... Please correct and re-evaluate.
#78
02-26-2008, 07:17 PM
Changes In Fuel Quality
BioDiesel (B2 to B100)
BioDiesel is becoming a standard. But Cummins doesn't recommend using anything stronger than B2 for fuels. BIoFuels are better lubricity quality than 2 cycle oil and don't require 2 cycle oil or lubricant to be added. Be aware that anything above B5 will VOID your warranty on your truck.????
this confuses me..
so i can only run a 2percent dino ,98% bio fuel.
okay soo. maybe just a misthought. b20 is 20 percent dino/80 percent bio.
or are you meaning if i use more then a 95% bio content fuel. it will void my warrenty?
BioDiesel (B2 to B100)
BioDiesel is becoming a standard. But Cummins doesn't recommend using anything stronger than B2 for fuels. BIoFuels are better lubricity quality than 2 cycle oil and don't require 2 cycle oil or lubricant to be added. Be aware that anything above B5 will VOID your warranty on your truck.????
this confuses me..
so i can only run a 2percent dino ,98% bio fuel.
okay soo. maybe just a misthought. b20 is 20 percent dino/80 percent bio.
or are you meaning if i use more then a 95% bio content fuel. it will void my warrenty?
#79
02-26-2008, 07:44 PM
The following 2 users liked this post by Whit:
Mopar1973Man (02-26-2008),
North Pole Hooker (08-20-2009)
#80
02-26-2008, 07:59 PM
Diesel Wrench
Changes In Fuel Quality
BioDiesel (B2 to B100)
BioDiesel is becoming a standard. But Cummins doesn't recommend using anything stronger than B2 for fuels. BIoFuels are better lubricity quality than 2 cycle oil and don't require 2 cycle oil or lubricant to be added. Be aware that anything above B5 will VOID your warranty on your truck.????
this confuses me..
so i can only run a 2percent dino ,98% bio fuel.
okay soo. maybe just a misthought. b20 is 20 percent dino/80 percent bio.
or are you meaning if i use more then a 95% bio content fuel. it will void my warrenty?
BioDiesel (B2 to B100)
BioDiesel is becoming a standard. But Cummins doesn't recommend using anything stronger than B2 for fuels. BIoFuels are better lubricity quality than 2 cycle oil and don't require 2 cycle oil or lubricant to be added. Be aware that anything above B5 will VOID your warranty on your truck.????
this confuses me..
so i can only run a 2percent dino ,98% bio fuel.
okay soo. maybe just a misthought. b20 is 20 percent dino/80 percent bio.
or are you meaning if i use more then a 95% bio content fuel. it will void my warrenty?
Anything strong that 5% Bio requires a different filter setup that can deal with large quanities of water and debris. Kind of like in this thread on my site... VE pump damaged and a CP3 was damaged by B100 (Homebrew)...
Damaged pumps by Biodiesel...
Mopar1973Man's Cummins Site • View topic - Bio Diesel and the effects...
---AutoMerged DoublePost---
Hey Whitmore... You might be careful copying and pasting my pages...
I tend to update my web page quite often and frequent as I find new data or information on 2 Cycle Oil or performance...
Also just to set the record straight I'm plaing on pulling a single injector out this summer. I should be really close to 50K miles with 2 cycle oil usage. I will take photos of it and proof to everyone that 2 cycle oil WILL NOT HARM YOU FUEL SYSTEM...
Last edited by Mopar1973Man; 02-26-2008 at 07:59 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
