a lot of good ideas - the cooling fans on the above engine mounted ic should work good with a cowl induction hood & it should suck in water

 

i didn't know you'd want to suck in water, actually.
new to this game, really.

I think I might be able to fit the 36x24 intercooler. piping wouldn't be horrible. dunno how exactly I'd mount it, maybe with bracket to the firewall. dunno yet.
once I get that figured, i'm off the races. the turbo and IC system is holing me back. Oh, and finding a job, being laid off an all, since I need my own place to do this ****.

 

Haha

 

figures.
Slim Whitey, making an *** of myself since 1992....blarg.

aaaanyway,

something like that would probably work. although it's not pretty, it's functional. throw a small, powerful fan into each side and badaboom, you've got air.
would be nice if the louvers were moved back about a foot and a half though.

 

Oh boy, so much to look at....where to start?

Google "scruffdog" and "top mount" for pics and write ups for a top mounted intercooler.



(did you notice you can't get to your fuel filter?)

He also ended up with a very big scoop to try and feed it:



Works for him, not my preference. It takes a horrendous amount of air to cool a top mount for reasons already mentioned in this thread.

Then there's water to air:



Another decent option. But, you still need radiators capable of shedding the intake heat, pumps, hoses, coolant, etc. And you have to fab it all yourself.

Too much complexity for me. Plus, if you rad choice isn't big enough it won't be able to shed enough heat, after a long pull it won't be very effective. With a big rad, you run into the same packaging issues as a big intercooler...

Then there's the "hanging ATA":



It's an option if you're driving a street truck. Has a few pluses like ease of installation and not adding hot air to the rad path. Minuses are obvious... I also can't mount my plow sub frame. Deal breaker right there....

Next is Water injection. I use it, works great. Not so much below freezing temperatures, but the air is colder than you're ever going to get with an intercooler in winter anyways. I've got a Devils own Stage 2 progressive system with a single 10 GPH nozzle and an 8 gallon tank.

http://www.alcohol-injection.com/for...esel-3121.html

Knocks my EGT's down about 100-150f I arm it once I hits 1050-1100F. But more importantly, if I program it to come on soon enough (around 7-8 psi) it will hold my egt's at around 900-1000F and my ECT's around 200 while hauling my 8500 lb travel trailer up passes like 4th of July pass. One long hard pull will drain the tank though.

An extra "bonus" is if I want a few more ponies, I can spike the water with about 5% meth and grab a few more points on the dyno graph....go easy on the meth though; 6.5 TD's don't like a lot of "drugs".....

My final choice?

I'm planning an air to air going in front of the rad and behind the condenser core, backed up by the Devils Own kit.

I'm modifying the rad support, moving the rad back about 2 inches and sliding in a Dodge intercooler.

A little bit of welding, a little bit of ducting and "bob's your uncle".

Simple, clean and no extra moving parts to break (fans, pumps, etc).


There is one question you should ask yourself before you spend any more money on your project;

Do you really need it?

If your boost is never over 13-15 Psi, you don't really need an intercooler...IAT's are manageable at anything under about 10psi. If you're running stock on the turbo, you probably spike 8-10 and cruise under 5......I run around a 14 psi spike and cruise around 5 psi. The intercooler will be for long hard pulls like Vantage highway and Look Out pass in the west with maybe the option of turning it up a bit more when I reflash my pcm for more fuel (I've got tunercat II with the software to tune and flash 6.5 OBDII PCM's).

I'm also running a new Optimizer 6500, bought from GM parts this past summer (my 599 block "calved" on Snoqualmie Pass)

Well, that's probably enough for you to think about for now.....good luck whichever way your decide to go.

 

Would an inner fender mount intercooler work? I know some cars used this setup

 

great white:
while I love the idea of water injection, I can't see it working well at -35. I dunno, something in there is gonna freeze. now like you say, the air then is gonna be colder than anything you get from an intercooler, but it's still another thing to winterize.

about the fuel filter: I can't imagine it takes long to undo the clamps and lift the intercooler off. just a note. hell, even on a CAT 3116 it takes a guy bout a minute to pull the intercooler tubing off. 4 clamps. looks like on scruffdog's setup you'd need to pull 2 clamps and pop the thing off, should you NEED to get to the fuel filter. just sayin.

and his scoop would look better if it was painted to match the hood.
also, if a guy got an automotive fan, I can't imagine it busting easily. drawing the electrical system pretty heavily, sure. the only reason I even thought of the need for a fan is for low speed, high temp situations. I'm a guy that likes to go out 4wheeling. if I'm gonna intercool my truck, it's gonna need cooling at low speeds with high temps. if I could get the cooling without the fan idea, I wouldn't use one.but I can't think of a better way. now you say a guy doesn't need to consider an intercooler below 15psi or so. well I'm looking to run a steady 10 for sure. I'd like to spike, wide ******* open, at about 15. if I can do that without an intercooler, then I don't intend to overcomplicate things.

But I also don't want to be 'nading the engine from heat.
also, I haven't spent any money on my project. it's all in the planning, is what I say. I've got the money for most of it, even the intercooler. but I'm not jumping in before I know exactly what I'm doing,and how far I'm going.

 

get water meth, its far better then a heat exchanger on these. you will lose more power running all that pipe then the mild cold air will give you. just not enough boost and no good location to put it. unless you have a 2wd then maybe the under bumper isn't too bad but for the price water meth actually does something.

 

I've got wmi.

Yes it does work.

About a 40-50 degree drop if I get it on before the egt climbs. Once the temps are up, wmi is pretty much ineffective. All it can do is hold the temp where it is once it's up. It will not drag it back down.

I've been there many times; dragging 9000lbs up 4th of July pass, 55-60 mph, touching 1100 egt, flick on the water at 10 GPH and......nada,zip, zilch. No decrease, but no more climbing egt either.

I've never really warmed up to the thought of spraying water into the engine. I'm an automotive and aviation technician. Yes I understand the theory and application of it, but it's never given me the warm and fuzzy feeling. The humidity factors introduced and the possibility of a failure and horkin' too much water in there has always given me the hebbie jeebies. The thought of bending a rod on my brand new $7,000 optimizer is not a good feeling. That's one of the reasons I went with a premade quality kit rather than homebrew. Will it happen? Highly unlikely. 1% chance of pranging the engine at best.

But I've repeatedly shown that my "luck" often beats long odds....:rolleyes:

I'm also an aviator, so I understand the relationship between humidity, temperature and air density.

All engine performance cares about is density. Thats what the engine "sees" in combustion. That's why we have charts that show how engine performance if affected by altitude and temperature and why turbo chargers and superchargers work better at altitude than na in a recip engine. They fool the engine into "seeing" a different charge density than ambient by cramming more air in than possible at even 100% ve.

FYI, general rule of thumb; as temperature goes up, so does the density altitude (bad).

My next step is an intercooler. On all the time, gives you the same 40-50 degree drop but its working before the egt climbs. I also like the "set it and forget it" aspect of it.

CAC don't cost you "power", they cost you few psi. This is compensated for by the fact the charge air is denser.

Power is fuel in a diesel, not psi.

What determines how much fuel you can dump in is charge density (o2), not psi (although there is a close relationship between the two in our aitomotive application).

Lots of people just don't understand that connection.

They just see "up the psi" like all the high hp cummins/max/stroke rigs, which is actually upping the density due to the compression the turbo imparts to the charge. However, the more you compress air the hotter it gets and them more the density drops per volume. So you crank up the psi to regain the loss in density. Which increases heating, which.....well, you get the idea.

This is why you see diesels that run high psi using a CAC. try finding a modern high output diesel that doesn't use a CAC....the gains outweigh to costs by a high margin. If the oem's could get away with not putting one on ($$$$$$), you better believe they would drop 'em like a hot potato...

Air run through a CAC can achieve the same density at lower psi. Better for the heads, better for the block, better for the crank, and definitely better for the head gaskets. Important considerations in a 6.x engine.

It's certainly not without drawbacks though. A poorly designed system can lead to "lag time" between turbo "spool up" and the time the cylinder sees the increase in atmospheric pressure. This comes down to everything from tubing diameter choice, to bend radius to internal design of the CAC.

There's also a packaging issue. Where does one stick that extra cooler in a gmt 400 chassis? Space is already at a premium if you have air-conditioning, trans cooler and an oil cooler behind that tight fitting grill.

A CAC is not just something you throw on there and expect it to work. You have to know a bit about what you're doing if you want to get all it's capable of.

Then, you also have to be able to get more fuel out of the ds4. You either have to spend upwards of a grand to be able to reflash it and learn how to alter the program yourself or pay someone to do it for you at around 500 bucks a flash.

Myself, I'm redesigning the rad support to move the rad back about 2", then slipping my CAC between the rad and the condenser core. The stock upper intake will hit the trash bin and a pennisular upper will be bolted on to take a few more 90 degree bends out of the system. Basically, air doesn't like to flow around much more than a 45 without incurring eddies, turbulence and losses.

Always on, shortest possible path from turbo to inlet and that big engine cooling fan is always drawing air across the stack.

Then, my water injection may get repurposed to spray on the outside of the CAC itself to increase the cooling effect of the air stream since water has a higher latent heat value than air. Without the added humidity in the charge air, the density will be further increased, allowing me to bump the fuel up a bit more also ( yup, I have the software to flash a PCM, no it's wasn't cheap, yes it hurt, ALOT).

Win-win.

Just have to do the math right on the CAC installation.

I never spray meth/alcohol mixture into my 6.5 anyways. High compression diesels like the 6.x don't handle drugs well....

Now, to throw another wrench into the works; if you upgrade your turbo to one that's designed to run in the turbo map at 10-15 psi or that moves more air at a lower compression ratio, you can avoid a lot of the heat imparted to the air in compression....but that's a whole 'nother discussion.