Banjo fittings
#1
01-12-2012, 09:14 AM
Banjo fittings
Let me start by saying I am far from an authority on the 6.0 fuel system. That being said, it was suggested that because it's a dead head system the check valve in the banjo fitting is to prevent bleed back of fuel. It was further suggested that a return line/system would do more for ensuring fuel flow. The 6.4 apparently has a return fuel system thus explaining the larger bore and no check valve. Further, anyone who has done the 6.4 or aftermarket banjo fitting can only site "piece of mind" as there is no proof one way or the other that it was the right thing to do.
Anyone else come across this information? The fact that depending on the tune I can have smoke out my tail pipe the entire quarter mile tells me that the 6.0 banjo fittings are passing fuel just fine.
Anyone else come across this information? The fact that depending on the tune I can have smoke out my tail pipe the entire quarter mile tells me that the 6.0 banjo fittings are passing fuel just fine.
#2
01-12-2012, 11:53 AM
The 6.4 banjo is more for peace of mind Karl, but it certainly wont hurt anything. We really can't compare the 6.0 fuel system to the 6.4, two different animals. We just got lucky they share the same head (essentially) and their open flowing banjos work on our heads too.
The 6.0 fuel system is pretty basic. Fuel is sucked out of the fuel tank and send to the HFCM (horizontal fuel control module) where we have a filter, the pump, and on some years a heater (they did away with this heater in 05 and up trucks, they found it promotes algae growth). From there, it is pushed up to the finer filter up on top of the motor. This housing is also where we have our "regulator" which is simply the spring that everyone has been replacing lately. It's really a crude way of regulating fuel flow. Spring rates change, and can be inconsistent, thus why everyone is putting in the blue spring now (stiffer, hold's more pressure IF the volume is there to support it).
So at the fuel filter housing, we have a lot going on here don't we? One fuel line coming in, fuel is filtered, we also have one line going out back to the tank (return line from that crude spring), and then two more lines feeding the heads. One line per head. Fuel is fed into the heads, and the heads are a "dead-head" system. Basically picture it as a tube with a cap on the end. We just fill it with fuel and pressurize it. As each injector opens, it takes some of the fuel out of this "tube", and the pump keeps filling it. We try to maintain 55psi or so, originally. New spring is around 62-67psi from what I've seen.
The front of the heads use a "check-valve" banjo bolt. I use quotes because it still bleeds off, just slowly. It's not a real check valve. I know because I had to replace them with true check valves for my vegistroke (to prevent veggie oil from going back into the stock fuel system). So fuel feeds in to the front of the head, and just fills that tube up. The tube actually runs straight through the head from front to back. In the back, there are just "plugs" similar to those plugs found in the fuel filter bowl where most guys tap into for fuel pressure. On my vegistroke, I remove these and my veggie feeds in to the back of the heads towards the front and hits my new check valves in the front of the heads, preventing flow going farther than the heads. On diesel side, my fuel runs through the front of the heads, out the back, down to my vegistroke "manifold" where there is a check valve there.
Now, we have all read about regulated return systems. Which technically we have, but it's not easily controlled, other than by swapping springs. Kind of crude. Some regulated systems actually remove those plugs in the back of the heads and add's a piece that connects the rear heads. It also has an adustable regulator here, and a return line going back to the tank. So now fuel can run through the entire head and right back to the tank, eliminating the "dead-head" setup.
For a cheap trick, I would simply just add a basic stainless braided hose connecting the two heads in the back, and add a "T" to tap into for fuel pressure. This way you can read fuel pressure in the back of the head, PAST the injectors. The injectors are basically 8 large drains. Why would we want to read fuel pressure in front of the heads at the fuel bowl right? This way we're reading past all of the drains at the end of the system to see what our dynamic fuel pressure is.
It's not necessary, but would be a "better" way of doing it.
Add an Airdog 2 fuel pump with a built in fuel pressure regulator and you're in business. You can base your fuel pressure readings from the back of the heads, and then adjust pressure on the pump accordingly.
Typically stock pumps don't have a problem with pressure, rather the volume needed when running hot tunes and big sticks.
Hope this helps clarify... any questions, ask away!
The 6.0 fuel system is pretty basic. Fuel is sucked out of the fuel tank and send to the HFCM (horizontal fuel control module) where we have a filter, the pump, and on some years a heater (they did away with this heater in 05 and up trucks, they found it promotes algae growth). From there, it is pushed up to the finer filter up on top of the motor. This housing is also where we have our "regulator" which is simply the spring that everyone has been replacing lately. It's really a crude way of regulating fuel flow. Spring rates change, and can be inconsistent, thus why everyone is putting in the blue spring now (stiffer, hold's more pressure IF the volume is there to support it).
So at the fuel filter housing, we have a lot going on here don't we? One fuel line coming in, fuel is filtered, we also have one line going out back to the tank (return line from that crude spring), and then two more lines feeding the heads. One line per head. Fuel is fed into the heads, and the heads are a "dead-head" system. Basically picture it as a tube with a cap on the end. We just fill it with fuel and pressurize it. As each injector opens, it takes some of the fuel out of this "tube", and the pump keeps filling it. We try to maintain 55psi or so, originally. New spring is around 62-67psi from what I've seen.
The front of the heads use a "check-valve" banjo bolt. I use quotes because it still bleeds off, just slowly. It's not a real check valve. I know because I had to replace them with true check valves for my vegistroke (to prevent veggie oil from going back into the stock fuel system). So fuel feeds in to the front of the head, and just fills that tube up. The tube actually runs straight through the head from front to back. In the back, there are just "plugs" similar to those plugs found in the fuel filter bowl where most guys tap into for fuel pressure. On my vegistroke, I remove these and my veggie feeds in to the back of the heads towards the front and hits my new check valves in the front of the heads, preventing flow going farther than the heads. On diesel side, my fuel runs through the front of the heads, out the back, down to my vegistroke "manifold" where there is a check valve there.
Now, we have all read about regulated return systems. Which technically we have, but it's not easily controlled, other than by swapping springs. Kind of crude. Some regulated systems actually remove those plugs in the back of the heads and add's a piece that connects the rear heads. It also has an adustable regulator here, and a return line going back to the tank. So now fuel can run through the entire head and right back to the tank, eliminating the "dead-head" setup.
For a cheap trick, I would simply just add a basic stainless braided hose connecting the two heads in the back, and add a "T" to tap into for fuel pressure. This way you can read fuel pressure in the back of the head, PAST the injectors. The injectors are basically 8 large drains. Why would we want to read fuel pressure in front of the heads at the fuel bowl right? This way we're reading past all of the drains at the end of the system to see what our dynamic fuel pressure is.
It's not necessary, but would be a "better" way of doing it.
Add an Airdog 2 fuel pump with a built in fuel pressure regulator and you're in business. You can base your fuel pressure readings from the back of the heads, and then adjust pressure on the pump accordingly.
Typically stock pumps don't have a problem with pressure, rather the volume needed when running hot tunes and big sticks.
Hope this helps clarify... any questions, ask away!
#4
01-12-2012, 01:29 PM
#7
01-13-2012, 08:58 PM
Diesel Enthusiast
6.4s have plugs in the heads too they have a return system similar to the 6.0, heres the thing. a real fuel pressure regulator and not a spring, although, a spring, be it in an oil pump like i do on my small block chevys for dirt oval racing, can be shimmed to allow for more pressure. a real FPR would be ideal for performance. something where you could crank it up or down manually or electronically controlled via pcm. pressure and volume do go hand in hand for any engine. i dont care if its a heui system diesel, a common rail diesel, or a carbureted small block. you could have all the pressure in the world but without volume, your not going to build anything except a disaster.
see the 6.4 uses a pressure control and volume control valve to regulate the fuel at the hpfp. problem is they are sitting on top of a hot extremely hot engine. AND UNDERNEATH THE TURBOS despite the heat shield which wont do much to prevent the amount of heat thats being produced with up pipes and down pipe right there, the electronics are going to and have been failing at alarming rates. i cant turn around at the service counter without another ro being handed to me for either a HPFP or radiator for a 6.4. anyways, this is why all the 6.4 guys who want power buy a dpf delete and spartan tuner. Simply put All a spartan or any aftermarket tuner does is play with the fuel tables and vgt tables in the pcms strategy. I can do the same with IDS by commanding the FRP DES pid and VGT duty cycle and shutting the EGR and ramp up the RPM only thing is you cant do it while driving... but with the truck stationary boy o boy they barf smoke and the DPF load status changes quickly to partially loaded. So you take any truck thats got a common rail system yeah you can make enormous amounts of power out of them. just dont expect longevity out of them. oh sure anyone can dpf delete egr delete a 6.4 and be just fine stock tune. throw a hot damn tune in and i have seen it, even after studs they puke coolant worse than a 6.0 ever did. 2 friends of mine had that issue and after going back finding the head gaskets were blown again knowing the heads are good, the block straight and gaskets new.... only way to fix that would be to fire ring the heads. just be thankful the crude spring is a simple 10 minute fix not a 10 hour havent gotten past 10 hours to do a HPFP in cab, or have an up pipe bolt break in the turbo and then have to pull the cab...
see the 6.4 uses a pressure control and volume control valve to regulate the fuel at the hpfp. problem is they are sitting on top of a hot extremely hot engine. AND UNDERNEATH THE TURBOS despite the heat shield which wont do much to prevent the amount of heat thats being produced with up pipes and down pipe right there, the electronics are going to and have been failing at alarming rates. i cant turn around at the service counter without another ro being handed to me for either a HPFP or radiator for a 6.4. anyways, this is why all the 6.4 guys who want power buy a dpf delete and spartan tuner. Simply put All a spartan or any aftermarket tuner does is play with the fuel tables and vgt tables in the pcms strategy. I can do the same with IDS by commanding the FRP DES pid and VGT duty cycle and shutting the EGR and ramp up the RPM only thing is you cant do it while driving... but with the truck stationary boy o boy they barf smoke and the DPF load status changes quickly to partially loaded. So you take any truck thats got a common rail system yeah you can make enormous amounts of power out of them. just dont expect longevity out of them. oh sure anyone can dpf delete egr delete a 6.4 and be just fine stock tune. throw a hot damn tune in and i have seen it, even after studs they puke coolant worse than a 6.0 ever did. 2 friends of mine had that issue and after going back finding the head gaskets were blown again knowing the heads are good, the block straight and gaskets new.... only way to fix that would be to fire ring the heads. just be thankful the crude spring is a simple 10 minute fix not a 10 hour havent gotten past 10 hours to do a HPFP in cab, or have an up pipe bolt break in the turbo and then have to pull the cab...
#8
01-14-2012, 04:01 PM
6.4s have plugs in the heads too they have a return system similar to the 6.0, heres the thing. a real fuel pressure regulator and not a spring, although, a spring, be it in an oil pump like i do on my small block chevys for dirt oval racing, can be shimmed to allow for more pressure. a real FPR would be ideal for performance. something where you could crank it up or down manually or electronically controlled via pcm. pressure and volume do go hand in hand for any engine. i dont care if its a heui system diesel, a common rail diesel, or a carbureted small block. you could have all the pressure in the world but without volume, your not going to build anything except a disaster.
see the 6.4 uses a pressure control and volume control valve to regulate the fuel at the hpfp. problem is they are sitting on top of a hot extremely hot engine. AND UNDERNEATH THE TURBOS despite the heat shield which wont do much to prevent the amount of heat thats being produced with up pipes and down pipe right there, the electronics are going to and have been failing at alarming rates. i cant turn around at the service counter without another ro being handed to me for either a HPFP or radiator for a 6.4. anyways, this is why all the 6.4 guys who want power buy a dpf delete and spartan tuner. Simply put All a spartan or any aftermarket tuner does is play with the fuel tables and vgt tables in the pcms strategy. I can do the same with IDS by commanding the FRP DES pid and VGT duty cycle and shutting the EGR and ramp up the RPM only thing is you cant do it while driving... but with the truck stationary boy o boy they barf smoke and the DPF load status changes quickly to partially loaded. So you take any truck thats got a common rail system yeah you can make enormous amounts of power out of them. just dont expect longevity out of them. oh sure anyone can dpf delete egr delete a 6.4 and be just fine stock tune. throw a hot damn tune in and i have seen it, even after studs they puke coolant worse than a 6.0 ever did. 2 friends of mine had that issue and after going back finding the head gaskets were blown again knowing the heads are good, the block straight and gaskets new.... only way to fix that would be to fire ring the heads. just be thankful the crude spring is a simple 10 minute fix not a 10 hour havent gotten past 10 hours to do a HPFP in cab, or have an up pipe bolt break in the turbo and then have to pull the cab...
see the 6.4 uses a pressure control and volume control valve to regulate the fuel at the hpfp. problem is they are sitting on top of a hot extremely hot engine. AND UNDERNEATH THE TURBOS despite the heat shield which wont do much to prevent the amount of heat thats being produced with up pipes and down pipe right there, the electronics are going to and have been failing at alarming rates. i cant turn around at the service counter without another ro being handed to me for either a HPFP or radiator for a 6.4. anyways, this is why all the 6.4 guys who want power buy a dpf delete and spartan tuner. Simply put All a spartan or any aftermarket tuner does is play with the fuel tables and vgt tables in the pcms strategy. I can do the same with IDS by commanding the FRP DES pid and VGT duty cycle and shutting the EGR and ramp up the RPM only thing is you cant do it while driving... but with the truck stationary boy o boy they barf smoke and the DPF load status changes quickly to partially loaded. So you take any truck thats got a common rail system yeah you can make enormous amounts of power out of them. just dont expect longevity out of them. oh sure anyone can dpf delete egr delete a 6.4 and be just fine stock tune. throw a hot damn tune in and i have seen it, even after studs they puke coolant worse than a 6.0 ever did. 2 friends of mine had that issue and after going back finding the head gaskets were blown again knowing the heads are good, the block straight and gaskets new.... only way to fix that would be to fire ring the heads. just be thankful the crude spring is a simple 10 minute fix not a 10 hour havent gotten past 10 hours to do a HPFP in cab, or have an up pipe bolt break in the turbo and then have to pull the cab...
Anyone doing a true EGR cooler delete on a 6.4 without putting a wastegate in is an idiot. The coolers are essentially the gates for them stock. Blocker plates are ok, but if you do a full delete, a wastegate really needs to be added to keep drive pressures in check. Without doing this, cracking heads, puking coolant, blowing headgaskets, and frying turbos are almost certain.
The 6.4 is a whole different beast, but like the 6.0, you still need to know what you're doing (not you in particular, just a generic comment).
