5.9 camshaft - egr
#1
07-11-2010, 12:54 PM
5.9 camshaft - egr
Hi, in another thread someone had said that the 5.9, although not having all the emission controls the 6.7 has, was designed to contaminate the intake charge with residual exhaust - like an egr valve. His exact quote is: "the 5.9 is more friendly to modifications because they only have the Catalytic converter and the camshaft is designed to where it functions as an egr system without the actual need to recirculate any exhaust back through the motor
Read more: https://www.dieselbombers.com/5-9-li...#ixzz0tOh3rZhc
Can anyone comment on this? Is the camshaft on the 3rd gen 5.9s ground with a lot of overlap to simulate an egr valve? Is this why some guys replace their cam with a different grind? If so, what cam/grind is recomended (for everyday use/towing - not hp/racing), and what does this grind do for mpg and torque? Thanks!
Read more: https://www.dieselbombers.com/5-9-li...#ixzz0tOh3rZhc
Can anyone comment on this? Is the camshaft on the 3rd gen 5.9s ground with a lot of overlap to simulate an egr valve? Is this why some guys replace their cam with a different grind? If so, what cam/grind is recomended (for everyday use/towing - not hp/racing), and what does this grind do for mpg and torque? Thanks!
#2
07-12-2010, 05:43 PM
Diesel Wrench
The 04.5+ camshafts have a profile that is conducive to creating an in-cylinder EGR effect. They do not in any way circulate exgaust gasses back thru the intake the way a normal EGR funtions.
The cam profile is only one part of the equation, the hot side of the turbo and how it is sized, the addition of a 3rd injection event at specific times, and injection timing all need to work in unison to create the EGR effect. Remove\change one or more and the effect is drastically reduced.
Changing the cam to the early design or even a 24V profile will take away at least part of it and put the power band band down into the lower portion, but, you have to tune injection timing to take advantage of that piece. The turbo is an easy replacement and will help also at the expense of spool time.
The Cummins designed in-cylinder solution was very specific and reliant on a lot of paramters working together to make meet emissions. It worked for the power levels the trucks shipped with, like anything else it tended to cause issues when the envelope was pushed to far.
The cam profile is only one part of the equation, the hot side of the turbo and how it is sized, the addition of a 3rd injection event at specific times, and injection timing all need to work in unison to create the EGR effect. Remove\change one or more and the effect is drastically reduced.
Changing the cam to the early design or even a 24V profile will take away at least part of it and put the power band band down into the lower portion, but, you have to tune injection timing to take advantage of that piece. The turbo is an easy replacement and will help also at the expense of spool time.
The Cummins designed in-cylinder solution was very specific and reliant on a lot of paramters working together to make meet emissions. It worked for the power levels the trucks shipped with, like anything else it tended to cause issues when the envelope was pushed to far.
The following users liked this post:
badbrad (07-12-2010)
yeah I agree with what he said
#5
07-13-2010, 12:06 AM
5.9 camshaft - egr
The 04.5+ camshafts have a profile that is conducive to creating an in-cylinder EGR effect. They do not in any way circulate exgaust gasses back thru the intake the way a normal EGR funtions.
The cam profile is only one part of the equation, the hot side of the turbo and how it is sized, the addition of a 3rd injection event at specific times, and injection timing all need to work in unison to create the EGR effect. Remove\change one or more and the effect is drastically reduced.
Changing the cam to the early design or even a 24V profile will take away at least part of it and put the power band band down into the lower portion, but, you have to tune injection timing to take advantage of that piece. The turbo is an easy replacement and will help also at the expense of spool time.
The Cummins designed in-cylinder solution was very specific and reliant on a lot of paramters working together to make meet emissions. It worked for the power levels the trucks shipped with, like anything else it tended to cause issues when the envelope was pushed to far.
The cam profile is only one part of the equation, the hot side of the turbo and how it is sized, the addition of a 3rd injection event at specific times, and injection timing all need to work in unison to create the EGR effect. Remove\change one or more and the effect is drastically reduced.
Changing the cam to the early design or even a 24V profile will take away at least part of it and put the power band band down into the lower portion, but, you have to tune injection timing to take advantage of that piece. The turbo is an easy replacement and will help also at the expense of spool time.
The Cummins designed in-cylinder solution was very specific and reliant on a lot of paramters working together to make meet emissions. It worked for the power levels the trucks shipped with, like anything else it tended to cause issues when the envelope was pushed to far.
Thanks for the information cerberus60. Do you know where I can find the specific specs on the different 5.9 cams?
Actually, I didn't think the newer cams circulated exhaust back through the intake. But in a way, that is correct. If a cam has a lot of overlap, the intake valve stays open longer and the piston pushes some of the exhaust back up into the intake port at lower rpms. More overlap tends to move the powerband up in rpms, which it sounds like in this case is what is happening with the later grind.
Do you know how the turbo was changed, and when? Can your Smarty adjust the injection timing back to earlier year's timing? How does your Smarty compare to say an Edge juice/attitude? Thanks.
#6
07-13-2010, 01:37 AM
edge is pretty much just a pressure box whereas the smarty does pressure, injection timing, fueling, trans, etc, and as far as i know you cannot go back in years with the injection events, 06-07 5.9's have 3 injection events whereas all other common rail 5.9's have 2 injection events per powerstroke of the engine, the only way i know to fully modify that is the Zeus ecu
#7
07-13-2010, 08:16 AM
Diesel Wrench
The LSA was tightened on the later cams which gives some more over lap but not enough to cause exhuast to backup into the intake. The profile moves the exhaust valve opening later in the cycle and opens it faster I believe. I don't have the specs and working from memory so its not exact.
You would have to find the cam specs at Cummins or maybe a cam make, if I ever find them again will save them.
The turbo housing is quite small on the 3rd gens which raise the drive pressure. with the 3rd event firing in there it cna spike that DP really high and just not allow the exhaust to evacuate the cylinde in the time the exhaust vlave is open. Add the late injection timing in there and thats the gist of how it works.
NOX emissions is what this setup targets and that happens under high load high rpm conditions. In reality I don't see much of anything happening until 2500 rpm's or more and at least a 50-60% load factor. At an idle there really is no EGR effect happening.
The Smarty allows to you change duration, pressure, and timing to different settings, remove TQ management, reset the speed limiter, etc. The Edge is a duration box that does a set timing curve with no adjustment.
Yes you can advance the timing back to pre-04.5 specs or even more if desired. The Smarty is much more adjustable and one is able to fine tune quite a few more things than the Edge. The beta of the Smarty SSR is supposed to have even more adjustability on high\low paramters and such.
You would have to find the cam specs at Cummins or maybe a cam make, if I ever find them again will save them.
The turbo housing is quite small on the 3rd gens which raise the drive pressure. with the 3rd event firing in there it cna spike that DP really high and just not allow the exhaust to evacuate the cylinde in the time the exhaust vlave is open. Add the late injection timing in there and thats the gist of how it works.
NOX emissions is what this setup targets and that happens under high load high rpm conditions. In reality I don't see much of anything happening until 2500 rpm's or more and at least a 50-60% load factor. At an idle there really is no EGR effect happening.
The Smarty allows to you change duration, pressure, and timing to different settings, remove TQ management, reset the speed limiter, etc. The Edge is a duration box that does a set timing curve with no adjustment.
Yes you can advance the timing back to pre-04.5 specs or even more if desired. The Smarty is much more adjustable and one is able to fine tune quite a few more things than the Edge. The beta of the Smarty SSR is supposed to have even more adjustability on high\low paramters and such.
The following users liked this post:
badbrad (07-13-2010)
#8
07-13-2010, 11:08 AM
5.9 camshaft - egr
The LSA was tightened on the later cams which gives some more over lap but not enough to cause exhuast to backup into the intake. The profile moves the exhaust valve opening later in the cycle and opens it faster I believe. I don't have the specs and working from memory so its not exact.
You would have to find the cam specs at Cummins or maybe a cam make, if I ever find them again will save them.
The turbo housing is quite small on the 3rd gens which raise the drive pressure. with the 3rd event firing in there it cna spike that DP really high and just not allow the exhaust to evacuate the cylinde in the time the exhaust vlave is open. Add the late injection timing in there and thats the gist of how it works.
NOX emissions is what this setup targets and that happens under high load high rpm conditions. In reality I don't see much of anything happening until 2500 rpm's or more and at least a 50-60% load factor. At an idle there really is no EGR effect happening.
The Smarty allows to you change duration, pressure, and timing to different settings, remove TQ management, reset the speed limiter, etc. The Edge is a duration box that does a set timing curve with no adjustment.
Yes you can advance the timing back to pre-04.5 specs or even more if desired. The Smarty is much more adjustable and one is able to fine tune quite a few more things than the Edge. The beta of the Smarty SSR is supposed to have even more adjustability on high\low paramters and such.
You would have to find the cam specs at Cummins or maybe a cam make, if I ever find them again will save them.
The turbo housing is quite small on the 3rd gens which raise the drive pressure. with the 3rd event firing in there it cna spike that DP really high and just not allow the exhaust to evacuate the cylinde in the time the exhaust vlave is open. Add the late injection timing in there and thats the gist of how it works.
NOX emissions is what this setup targets and that happens under high load high rpm conditions. In reality I don't see much of anything happening until 2500 rpm's or more and at least a 50-60% load factor. At an idle there really is no EGR effect happening.
The Smarty allows to you change duration, pressure, and timing to different settings, remove TQ management, reset the speed limiter, etc. The Edge is a duration box that does a set timing curve with no adjustment.
Yes you can advance the timing back to pre-04.5 specs or even more if desired. The Smarty is much more adjustable and one is able to fine tune quite a few more things than the Edge. The beta of the Smarty SSR is supposed to have even more adjustability on high\low paramters and such.
Thanks for the information. Is there a turbo replacement for general towing/driving that makes a significant difference in egt/mpg/torque? Can the Smarty be "plugged in", or does it require cutting wires, etc. to evidence modification? Can the Smarty also function as a TC/trans lockup controller? What is the website for Smarty to get more info on it? Do you have specific info on how changing back to a 2nd gen cam profile affects egt/mpg/torque etc? Thanks!
#9
07-13-2010, 01:15 PM
Diesel Wrench
Thanks for the information. Is there a turbo replacement for general towing/driving that makes a significant difference in egt/mpg/torque? Can the Smarty be "plugged in", or does it require cutting wires, etc. to evidence modification? Can the Smarty also function as a TC/trans lockup controller? What is the website for Smarty to get more info on it? Do you have specific info on how changing back to a 2nd gen cam profile affects egt/mpg/torque etc? Thanks!
The Smarty does no trans\shift\lockup control. You would need something else to control that. Here is the web site: Mads Electronics - Smarty - CaTCHER - Dodge Tuning - Home
There are turbo replacements that will cut the drive pressure down, provide more air, more power, etc. but the stock turbo is pretty good to about 500 HP and is one of the best spoolers available. Any time you change the air delivery you have the potential of changing the TQ and power bands. Depends on what your aiming for.
Example: pull the OE cam and either go with am aftermarket or a 24V stock cam, change out the turbo for something like and SPS 62\12, reprogram the injection events to stretch duration and advance timing and reduce the TQ management. The results of this will mimic very closely the power curves of a 24V engine. Lots of TQ in the bottom end that falls off as rpms go up. This will spool the turbo faster and allow a larger one to perform better plus keep the revs under where the 3rd event is designed to fire. Reported increase in mpg are anywhere from 15% to 40% depending on use.
The following 2 users liked this post by cerberus60:
badbrad (07-13-2010),
pngmotoman (07-13-2010)
#10
07-13-2010, 05:52 PM
5.9 camshaft - egr
Smarty is a down loader that updates the ECU with alternate tables that control performance. Its only connection is plug into the data port. It can be run as a load and disconnect, or, the newer POD (power on demand) stays plugged into the data port and you can select a percentage of power on the fly, about 3 seonds to change from say 25% of 160 HP tune to 100%. The beta version, code name Super Sport, has many more adjustments to be played with.
The Smarty does no trans\shift\lockup control. You would need something else to control that. Here is the web site: Mads Electronics - Smarty - CaTCHER - Dodge Tuning - Home
There are turbo replacements that will cut the drive pressure down, provide more air, more power, etc. but the stock turbo is pretty good to about 500 HP and is one of the best spoolers available. Any time you change the air delivery you have the potential of changing the TQ and power bands. Depends on what your aiming for.
Example: pull the OE cam and either go with am aftermarket or a 24V stock cam, change out the turbo for something like and SPS 62\12, reprogram the injection events to stretch duration and advance timing and reduce the TQ management. The results of this will mimic very closely the power curves of a 24V engine. Lots of TQ in the bottom end that falls off as rpms go up. This will spool the turbo faster and allow a larger one to perform better plus keep the revs under where the 3rd event is designed to fire. Reported increase in mpg are anywhere from 15% to 40% depending on use.
The Smarty does no trans\shift\lockup control. You would need something else to control that. Here is the web site: Mads Electronics - Smarty - CaTCHER - Dodge Tuning - Home
There are turbo replacements that will cut the drive pressure down, provide more air, more power, etc. but the stock turbo is pretty good to about 500 HP and is one of the best spoolers available. Any time you change the air delivery you have the potential of changing the TQ and power bands. Depends on what your aiming for.
Example: pull the OE cam and either go with am aftermarket or a 24V stock cam, change out the turbo for something like and SPS 62\12, reprogram the injection events to stretch duration and advance timing and reduce the TQ management. The results of this will mimic very closely the power curves of a 24V engine. Lots of TQ in the bottom end that falls off as rpms go up. This will spool the turbo faster and allow a larger one to perform better plus keep the revs under where the 3rd event is designed to fire. Reported increase in mpg are anywhere from 15% to 40% depending on use.
Thanks for the information. I misunderstood - what is TQ management? I am not looking for a lot more hp. This will be a daily driver/toyhauler puller - no racing, etc. I am concerned with torque and mileage. What rpm is the "3rd event" programmed to fire at? Have you seen these mpg increases reported on this forum, or other forums; and if so, where? I would really like to talk to people that have done this. Thanks.
