3/4 ton Ford Chevy GM Off Road
 

I'm going to edit this for shortness.

lb for lb stock for stock. opinions on which truck has the tightest turn radius. Best general off road durability and tractability. I want to build a 2500/f350 chevy or dodge or ford truck. I don't own a diesel now but I know how i am with new things and it won't be pretty once I get going. I need crew cab (for the kids and camping) I need long term reliability even with the occassional mud romping or high speed off road excursion.

I am not afraid to get my trucks hood deep in water (should I be with diesels? Ford and chevy's air intake is prime for suckin h20)

Link up some good reading if at all possible..and I happen to be a cummins fan..no offense to the chevy fans but chevy doesn't have a long standing diesel rep like dodge and ford. I won't lie I'd like to be able to keep up with mustang or charger to make him do a double take..SO could someone link up a post that breaks down popular modifications and well...what some of this lingo means? 10k mod? Delete and well if your a guru and know some common slang would help. Thanks..damn still too damn long..

i would probably look for a mega cab dodge cummins:pca1:

I'd go with the Dodge too.

Let's see how about

why? besides owning one and cummins is a good long term vehicle.

Turn radius? Axles durability? SUspension availability?

Upgrade availability? new chevy is pulling more power..does that make a huge difference? not really but damn chevy parts are like @$$ holes everyones got one and a spare for a boss.

PS how about can someone throw me a bone on some of the slang..10k mod? what are popular mods for diesels? (besides exhaust but I'd love to hear opinions on exhaust) Flame me call me stupid and then throw some knowledge down on me and I'm happy..Just hoping to learn a whole lot more.

Ok, Dodge has solid axles, Chevy doesn't. Dodge has Cummins, Ford doesn't. Turning on a Dodge quadcab shortbed is tight enough for a fullsize 4-door. I don't know if you prefer auto or standard but Dodge seems to have more standards out there. If it's fourwheeling you like the low end grunt of the straight 6 Cummins is way more than enough in stock form. In my opinion the Cummins is like the Chevy 350, everyone carries parts for it and the aftermarket is flooded with stuff. As for modding it, it's as easy as 1-2-3......take care of the air/fuel in, exhaust out and suspension.

Yeah, I'd have to say if you want off-roading ability the Ford or Dodge is better. I don't like the new Ford engines due to the reliabilty issues they've been having since the 6.0 came out, and now with Navistar cancelling production. GMs are excellent trucks, they last just as long as anything else, but their offroad abilities in 3/4 ton and larger leave a lot to be desired. They come stock with tiny tires, weak tie rods and weaker front suspension designs. IFS just can't take the beating that a solid front can. That being said, I'd swing the way of a Cummins. The engines last forever, the front axle is more robust although I've heard they need bearings done more often (dodge guys can correct me here), and as they said there's a ton of mods out there for them, although I'd say there's just as many out there for the duramaxes. If you don't plan on beating your front end too much and you like everyday driveability and fuel economy the Duramax would be a great choice. Fords are tough, but the new ones suffer from terrible fuel economy. (10-14mpg, and you'd be lucky to get 19mpg on the highway)

for off roading, i'd go with the dodge. the front axle is a dana 60, as opposed to the dana 50 in the ford. for those that don't know, a D50 is basically D44 guts in a D60 housing. the knuckles and housing is D60 but that's it. rear ends are pretty even, D80 for the dodge and whatever ford calls theirs.

the chevy has IFs in teh front, so thats pretty much all you need to know for off roading a chevy.

Dodge has a diesel rep... but ford? ... no offense, but a cummins powers ford's big trucks now-a-days...

Amen :5:

If you want stupid simple and reliable I would get the dodge with a cummins anyday everyone has them they have become the small block chevy of the diesel world.

Mods are popular if you plan on lifting it there is a few really good companies out there for them.

My suggestion would be once you figure out what you want to go into that section there is a lot of awesome info for them.:U:

That's what I'm talkin about. Solid axle I figured was a stronger option I had hoped maybe chevy had found a way to strengthen the front end..still don't know why they went with IFS other than to keep the old folks happy (ride quality)

Again not to be a question whore but can I get some basics on the cummins. I hear

12v (what years anyone know the good and bad of this motor?
24V same questions and what kind of power were these motors putting out after you replaced exhaust and perhaps fuel rails..

What forum should I be reading for basics on diesels and cummins.
?'s boost controllers (I had a friend that had a digital dinger in his truck that let him up the boost..or so he said)
how much boost is safe if someone wants to have a fun quick little truck. I admit acceleration is fun and it's even better when a big 4x4 walks past a mustang..sorry if I sound ignorant but damnit I love power.

Some basics. Common rail fuel injection? I see 200 injectors 120 injectors.. You guys have a TON of information you don't even know you have lol. CTD? cummins turbo diesel? VB and TC? just your sig toy4x is encrypted to my green ass. Searching for some info I appreciate all the responses. I am familiar with dana 60s,50s,44s (44'x are for jeeps an lil stuff imho)

3KGSK?
and if you had 4k to put into a motor. what would you do and what would that motor be pushing when you were finished? (assume cummins thanks for reassuring my dodge loyalty)
BD Boost Fooler Hot Rod VP FASS 150 ?

It's a new language I am trying to learn.. I'm going to google some of it but if you can recommend some things to search the forum for where I can research? and give some of your own opinions. I would certainly appreciate it.

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PS I saw a video that just about had me come out of my seat.. This dodge diesel 2500 I think 4wd behind him is a dodge 1500 and behind the dodge is an RV Good sized one too.. This 2500 or 3500 not sure which is strapped to the truck and the truck (that is stuck in the dirt) is strapped to the RV..all you hear is the motor go a little the strap tightens up a little diesel whine (I love that sound) and this guy pulls both trucks and the RV out without a puff of smoke.. Didn't even rev up.. slicker than snot on linoleum

1st Generation 12 Valve:
Years:89-93
Fuel System:Bosch VE Injection Pump/Mechanical
My Opinion: Good Trucks and great engine, cant make huge stupid power but there are guys up over 500 with these trucks. Very simple to get more power out of these by just tweaking the pump.


2nd Gen 12 valve:
Years:94-98
Fuel System: The Legendary P-7100 Injection Pump/Mechanical

My Opinion: The holy grail of the diesel enthusiasts trucks, these engines can make stupid rediculous horsepower, can turn these things as high as you can go and go vroom :D, great truck for sled pulling because of the unlimited possibilities with injcetion pump. Only down side they are hard to find in decent shape that havent been BOMBed already.

2nd Gen 24 valves:
Years:98.5-2002
Fuel: Vp-44:booo: Not the best

My Opinion: Not a bad truck the injection pump leave a little to be desired if you dont put enough fuel into the injection pump it will fry it whcich is where a FASS or Airdog lift pump come into play to keep the pump happy and supply us with enough fuel. Good truck great engine cant ever go wrong with a Cummins

3rd Gen Common Rails:
years:03-07 5.9 07.5-Present 6.7
Fuel:CP3 supply Pump
My Opinion: These engines are really starting to catch on and guys are getting huge power my adding dual CP3's and huge injctors and really aggressive tuning. It is still the cummins so once again you cant go wrong.

The new 6.7 Cummins has all the Emmissions stuff on it and i would stay away from these they get bad mileage and havent got all the bugs out of em yet


Now for the rest of your questions:

VB-Valve Body its in the transmission
TC-Torque Converter
3-4K GSK-Governor springs for the 2nd gen 12v's with the P-7100 pump, lets you turn more RPMs
100 Injections-Just like it says 100 horse power injectors over stock flow more fuel
FASS 150-Lift pump that flows 150 Gallons Per Hour
Hot Rod VP-a varation of the VP-44 Injection Pump for the 2nd Gen 24v, some swear by them some say your better off with a stock pump
Boost Fooler-Fools the ECM on electronically controlled engines to show 0 PSI of boost and keep giving more fuel



Anymore questions ask, my eyes are crossed and my fingers are cramping :D

haahaa you are awesome!!! THANK YOU!!!:U::U::U: :pals:

why does it seem like the only thing you gotta do to get more power is add more fuel? Do people port n polish and work these motors over..



PS I am going to guess your pic of a truck would be a cummins 12v for cheap (california btw) truck that might last awhile? What would you do if you could put 4k in the motor and what kind of power should be expected? I know a chevy 350 and a thing or 2 about ford (like they should have kept the 460 and just upgraded the fuel injection)

3-4k valve springs ? makes sense but rev up a diesel sounds like it might :ouch:

if you can think of any other good advice or a place to find it. You guys are @#$%in rock solid!! I admit a little diesel envy my budy has a built cobra that I would love to see get spit out by a cummins lol

What are your typical mods and well let's go with fuel injectors. What kind of results do you get from adding what fuel injector with obviously an upgraded fuel pump behind it?

there are some guys that do the port and polish jobs on the trucks but unless you are trying for ungodly power it isnt needed.

believe it or not you can rev the 12v cummins motors pretty high I have a 3k spring on my cummins and it sounds awesome and doesnt require heavier valve springs.

well for the 12v cummins depending on the year and if it is a stick or auto you wont need to worry about an upgraded pump but you can mod the one you have with simple stuff they have a fuel plate in them that can be replaced with a different one or you can grind your own.

as for injectors alot of ppl will say the 370 marine injectors because of price and power output but the biggest problem is the spray pattern can cause piston damage but there are a ton of aftermarket injectors out there for them.

I would say after you get a truck go through the classified ads on here and there should be a ton of used parts that ppl are swapping out and you can really save alot that way.
:U:

alright now this is probably a strange quesetion..but...lower gear or higher gears? seems to be a diesel has the tq to turn the big tires and gears so you'd get better gas mileage and effective wheel spin while mudding with a lower gear ratio..but that's against everything I know about wheeling..low gear ratio = good but..with that much torque..? ya I know lol soo many questions

Thanks for the patience here. I don't have an issue with spending the money on the right parts. I planned on a banks package and was a little curious (I know nothing about turbos) how to up boost and how much boost is safe with that block?

dont go with a banks, he is awful proud of his stuff and you end up just paying for the name, most all the Cummins you can hit 50 psi and be alright, but 40 is about all you would want on stock head bolts after that it all up to you there are guys running 150Psi thru these trucks not on the street mind you but on the track

Gearing depends on the year and the transmission.
Automatic I would go with 4.10's
NV5600 I would go with 3.7's
the G56 only came in 3.73 until 07

ok fair enough 40 PSI???? HOLY boost batman!! What are the old 12v running stock? Not to keep asking all these crazy questions.

What is the process of increasing boost that much? I am assuming that's where the high flow injectors come into play and the pump modifications? How tough is it to make a 13 second diesel out of curiousity..you guys are talking pretty high boost numbers that won't shatter rods or ?

Obviously not I suppose as you said it's possible..The cummins block must be stupid strong. At say 35 psi with injectors someone woudl be running XX horsepower? And why don't they rate diesels in torque as that is what they do best?

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has anyone seen that video? Sorry to ask stupid questions if they are stupid.

most of the guys running that high of boost are your dedicated sled pullers and drag racers and probably have well over $70,000 into there engines would.


35 psi is not hard to reach i can hit 30 and i dont have alot done to my truck i could hit 40 but i would have to plug my wastegate and then i could overspeed my turbo and that would be bad...

To get 13 seconds you need to get a good programmer free up the breathin with an intake and exhaust and just know how to drive, a Duramax with EFI live can get into 13's.

Ok that all makes sense. seems to me for straight line speed duramax has it on lock down but if you plan on pulling or putting a heavy loads on the truck nothing beats of cummins? big shocker there. besides gears what do you guys think stick to auto?

stick

ford superduty with a 7.3 and a 6 speed, crew cab short bed, and if you get a 2003 you get the dana 60 front and if you look around you can find factory F350 single wheels that came with 80's in the rear, hard to find but you can, call EMS Offroad and get their freespin kit, get a good set of lift springs or coilover conversion kit if you like, get you lockers front and rear with a good set of deep gears......

If this is gonna be an off-road truck you're much better off to go with a gasser... For 2 big reasons.

1. The Cummins is HEAVY, and thanks to its extra weight, the nose likes to sink in the mud.

2. The Power Wagon is only available with the Hemi, and it is bar none the most capable pickup to roll off the assembly line of any truck maker since the last Power Wagon. You would be hard pressed to build a Cummins trucks as capable without $10K worth of aftermarket parts, and labor. With both axles locked up, the sway bar unlocked, and a good driver, the Power Wagon will go places that a truck on 38" tires won't go... Pretty much thanks to its locking Diffs. Of course, if you ever do manage to stick it, the 12K lb Warn winch should pull you out of just about anything.

But if you really want a Cummins, just expect to pay more to get good off-road capability from it. My 99 on 35's isn't bad, but in the mud I rely on the skidder to get me out if I get stuck, because another truck doesn't have the balls to get me out when the nose is burried to the frame.

lol good point I can sure dig some nice ruts in the fields the front has a lot of engine not very nimble if you have to get into deep mud. also look into reloction kits for all drivetrain vents.

interesting.. here in CA there isn't a ton of mud and most of the mud we have is deep water sitting on top of wet dirt if you get my meaning.. granted in all likelyhood I'll be hood deep in water fairly often and I actually intend on adding bits to the bed of the truck to try and get closer to 50/50 weight transfer.. tool box full size spare a recovery kit etc. The new power wagon looks like sex on wheels I won't lie. I just have a hankering for a diesel that I can drive and tow and just has the best factor. originally I figured diesel wouldn't be as good for off roading as the tires won't spin up as quick and the motor reacts slower. Other than that though most of my off roading is hill climbing and some snow when I make it out to SLC and sand/desert. I'm not sure how wise it is but I am looking for ultra wide tires for a larger contact patch and in some cases that will help raising the front end while mudding if I am correct?

Yes and no... Its really all dependent on what kind of conditions you're in. Thick, greasy, shallow, mud requires a wide tire for the most traction; but soupy deep mud requires a thin tall tire to bite down and get traction. Deep snow requires a light vehicle, and unltra wide tires to float on top... Tracks are really the best option. Shallow snow, or hard pack, requires tall skinny tires to cut through and bite.

well there you go I can balance the truck out because I'll have 4 tires in the back depending on what I am doing. Found today a 2008 2500 mega cab cummins.. 65k miles is there anything visually I should look for that might be tell tale signs of heavy abuse? PS the 2008 was for under 30k so I was pretty happy but skeptical. Unless I am just off on resale values that seems pretty good to be true. There was also a chipped 2002 f350 crew chipped 7.3 liter for 19k...I am considering some of the fords

they had a harley edition 350 with the 6.0 for 19k it was a 2004 I think. But DAMN was it nice inside.

I plan on front lockers for sure likely a detroit front and rear but not positive yet. You sound pretty confident in that setup logans. You know someone running that? also what kind of issues are there with getting these trucks a little more water friendly?

the only thing with an 08 is that it has all the emissions stuff on it, now that can be taken care of really easy:w2:

That price doesn't seem off at all. For your front diff, I would suggest NOT using a Detroit... You want something selectable so its not binding up on you when you don't want it. The T-Case will hate you if you try making tight turns in 4wd with the front diff locked up. Use an ARB, or an OX, or an EcTed, that way when you need to maneuver tight you can still use 4wd, but have an open front diff.

As far as waterproofing goes, I personally think its just plain dumb to take a $30K pickup through deep water, but if you want to do it, its your truck. A few basic things you're gonna have to do is raise/extend all the axle vent tubes, the trans vent, the T-Case vent, a bunch of your wiring needs to be sealed up, a clutch fan you can manually turn off, and an airbox that is high and dry (a lot of guys run them into the cab).

Keep in mind, you're probably never going to get it 100% waterproof with an electronic truck, if it were a 12V you'd be much better off, there's no wiring needed to run the truck if you replace the shutoff solenoid with a cable.

I don't know about total waterproofing I don't plan on rerouting air intakes just want to make sure it's not more prone to water logging than a gasser. This dodge in the engine bay seemed a bit warn..the insulating was kind of falling off..So other than a 65k miles on a motor taht could probably run a couple hundred thousand. Are there any signs that a diesel has been abused? Towed too much for too long etc? Discoloration of the turbo? Just want to make sure whether I get a ford a dodge or a cheby I don't get something that's been beaten to death.

There was another truck there a standard bed crew cab 7.3L F250 good price they said it was chipped. They all felt strong started easy I test drove the F250 tranny was strong shifted well power steering seemed a little strange. Could have just been I'm not used to ford steering

Diesel shopping tips?

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I'm hearing people say that Diesels don't get smogged?? why in the WORLD would I keep my cat converters on if that's the case!!!

You really need to bone up on this stuff before you buy one, it would take a full page for us to describe this to you. 08's+ use a DPF, you can't just rip it off, the truck will throw a code and go to limp mode. Again, waterproofing is absolutely necessary to keep the engine running right. If you short out a pump harness you could really screw the engine up. I personally wouldn't buy a truck that was "Chipped" especially if you don't know what kind of chip it is, or how it works (added timing, fuel only, both, etc.).

There really aren't any more tell tale signs the truck has been abused with a diesel... In fact, IMO, a gasser is easier, at least with a gas motor you can pull a spark-plug or two and check to see how its been running.

ya...I figured as much I guess my only shot really is to see if it looks visably well taken care of maybe smell the oil (which they would change if they had .02 of common sense) and hope it's just that durable it won't fall apart. one of the trucks I really liked also was the harley bling F-350 but it had the 6.0..

Ok I don't want to annoy you guys with questions. Anyone that can recommend a few good threads with info? I see your point on "what chip" the salesmen actually said "I don't know how to use the chip but it's got one" LOL Thanks for all the info. They did mention a 5.9 I6 in a slightly older truck that was lifted etc.. I figured the 24V 5.9 wouldn't be as good as the 6.7 (no replacement for discplacement) but it sounds as though I may be wrong.

again your patience and responses here are WELL appreciated!!!!

As long as the 5.9L was a 03 or newer, I'd stick with that... If its older than an 03, go with the 6.7L... The 6.7 is a great motor, but the 5.9's don't have the DPF equipment, and there is a much larger aftermarket for them right now.

you sir are the man


ok...so nobody has any ideas on where to start with all the reading? This site has a l o t of information to start weeding through. damnit I didn't mean to lolsmilie face thingie.

ps..opinions on the 08 ford 6.4L? F350 crew short bed box and some wierd step thing on the tale gate that has like ..this rod that comes up? what in the hell that's for I don't know..but it has a hook to hang a trash bag!! also gah I just can't stop with the questions. Torque converters how much of a difference does that make in the way the truck drives accelerates etc? What are your opions on tq converters.

For offroad, I would get a 3rd gen ram with 5.9L unless you want a new truck, then the 6.7L is fine. I would get a stick shift for durability, unless the type of offroading or driving skill only allows an automatic. The gearing will be 3.73 with the stick but comes out about the same as the auto with 4.10's. get some type of 4"-6" lift with 35's or 37's, arb air lockers (as soon as the are released), remove the front sway bar, and get a decent winch mounted on a 2" reciever and then get the 2" hitch on the front of the truck to. Man there is so much you can keep doing, the list will go on and on...
an assortment of skid plates, steering box brace, or hydro steer assist, bumpers, sliders, tire carriers, off road lighting, guages, fender flares or flared fenders, etc etc etc, if you have enough money then I think the list could go on and on.

Best bet is to buy the dodge cummins, and then add the parts that will make it as close to a factory power wagon as possible and call it quits before you spend your entire life savings.

I noticed at one point you mentioned that you thought the enginemay not be as responsive as having a gas offroad, but it will be fine, they react fast and the never ending torque is awsome. I can just put it in L and idle just about anywhere int he woods.

Also, someone mentioned Chevy keeping the IFS to keep the old men happy with ride quality. Personally I don't think their ride quality is that great. I drive a straight axle dodge on 37's short arm lift, and I worked at a chevy dealer as a salesman and can say from first hand experience that the torsion IFS doesn't ride much different than my truck. The 1500 coil IFS seemed to be a little better than the past models, but the 2500/3500 seem to be just as rough as my truck.

Alright, while he makes some good points, soe of his ideas are just scary. Don't EVER remove the front swaybar on the front of a Cummins truck... EVER!!! (unless its purely an off-road truck, and if that's the case, you don't want a Cummins). You don't need a steering box brace on a 3rd gen, and hydro steering assist is a waste.

The GM front IFS is a lot nicer riding than the Dodge... You know how unsprung weight effects ride quality? Well a solid axle weighs 2-3 times what a solid axle does.

Alot of people run their cummins without a sway bar. I don't run a sway bar on my truck, and I still haul with it and run it around town and on the highway as a daily commuter. I do agree that it could be more dangerous, however only slightly do you notice that it is un hooked. I am not sure why it would be any more dangerous in a cummins as opposed to any other truck?

I would recomend the steering brace it you are running 37's or bigger, definitely a good investment. I have read that some people think that the flex between the frame rails being tied together by the box brace will actually attempt to pull the seering box off, but I disagree.

The hydro is something I won't ever do just because I don't want the extra maintenance of more parts and stuff on my truck. However, it will defintely help turn those big tires, especially when you're creepin in the trails.

You know how poor engineering affects ride quality? haha J/K man

Typo I guess? again just kidding man

You're kidding right? You're talking about a 1200lb engine sitting much higher in the chassis, which means a higher center of gravity, and a much higer roll characteristic. If you have it disconnected, you are asking for trouble, and not just a roll over. Poor steering, excessive body roll, increased tire wear, etc. If you wanna do it, go ahead, but there's a big reason its on there.

Poor engineering does a lot, but even great engineering can't overcome physics.

Yeah, I missed that, my bad... But everyone knew what I meant. Solid axle > IFS

Hey Savage. welcome to DB! You should spend some time on CF dude.


To the OP, sounds like you are expecting this to be easy. Diesel's are not 1-2-3 easy fix. There is alot of knowledge to be had on these things. It is an endless classroom.

But here is one thing I did not see answered from your original post. You should be VERY VERY afraid to get water in your diesel. 1, you turbo is basically history if you get a good amount of water in it. A gas engine is also bad, but if you kill it in time, you can pop the plugs out and drain the water. You cannot with these. There are alot of expensive components that will be destroyed if you suck in water. Keep your hood above water. If you want to get crazy, jack your truck up high.

For the kids in the back part, if you need 4 doors, a 3rd gen ram is what you will be looking for. 03+. So that takes the 12V out of the picture. If you want crazy amounts of room for their muddy shoes to kick everything, get a Mega Cab. I personally think they look retarded, (the cab is longer than the bed) but that is just me.

This doesn't sound like a realistic dream you have here. Good luck on your quest on finding and building your perfect truck.

get a 03+ with a 5.9 quad cab short bed just like the power wagon. get a KORE chase or prerunner suspention 37's and some glass fenders (look at my avitar) relocate all the vents higher 4" exhaust a good intake and programmer like a smarty and you will love that truck and can go where ever you want (with hood above water) you can also huck it off dunes 3+ feet of air and drive home. then if you still want to run 13's add turbo/s and injectors. if you like auto trans save your money be needing one soon with above mods. I like standards so a good clutch and bingo your there. :ok1:

I just need to know my limits. My old chevy had 6 inches on 35's and with correct driving and momentum you can keep water out of the engine bay with the skinny pedal. Knowing how sensitive it is to water just means I'll enter slow hammer it hard and pull through (shallower) the water with more of a wake and perhaps a front skid plate to redirect a little extra. mostly trail but I don't want to have to be terrified to go through 2 or 3 feet of water on top of some good fun mud. I found a good 5.9 05 looks good crew cab I think from pictures. Will have to check it out.

As far as speed goes I just want a truck when I pin it I know I am accelerating. It's not a racer but the factory 6.7 I test drove was a damn dog other than it kept chirping the tires with stupid amounts of torque...which.. I liked that part.

I planed on 37's on 16/17 inch rims (rubber =softer ride) Air locker in the front detroit for strength in the rear. Future mods will be a compressor converter.. and something nobody mentioned here I may have to get fabbed up.

Quick Disconnect sway bar.. I have a constant mount design in my head I am trying to find out how to fab it up..Thanks for all the feedback. I've looked into the Smarty's etc and it sounds GREAT blah 100hp blah blah right...

What kind of real numbers will come from the first few mods? better intake smarty or banks system and what do I need to be able to increase boost 3 or 4 lbs?