Swapping early style hpop to later
 

While the i have the engine out of this truck ive been tossing around the idea of putting the later style hpop in the truck since i can easily swap the branch tubes. And that will eliminate 2 weaknesses on this early style engine imo. The stc fitting update/ later style pump has never failed me on newer trucks. Anyone else have any opinions on this?

No one has ever decided to swap out the pumps? Since ive had 3 early style pumps fail and none of the newer style i thought this would be a must.

I think there is more to it than just swapping pumps and branch tubes. Since there is no "upgrade" for the newer pumps most go with a DieselSite pump. :humm::humm:

There are no dieselsite pumps available to the public for the 05+ trucks.

I'm pretty sure the 03 design was updated anyways from Ford, or you can get a dieselsite one for the 03/04 trucks.

Im putting the stock ford late model pump back on this truck. I have the updated heads and oil rails with my icp on the passenger oil rail. And ford did not change the casting on the block so im going back with later model branch tubes with the later style hpop and stc fitting. Im almost 110% it will work and be fine. I'll post once its up and running.

I'm not sure I've seen this done before. Take pictures for us, I'm interested to see how you make out with it!

I too would like to see this done

I've never had a problem in 250k with my 04, when its time to replace I will be using the diesel sites pump. I don't think the early pumps have the failure rates of the newer ones

I've heard 03's are the worst...

For some reason in every powerstroke I've owned the 03-04 pump is the only one's I've had shit the bed. So there for my personal opinion being the later style being superior to the early. I'm gonna swap em out and give it a shot. Maybe I'm wrong but I'm gonna give it a go

did you every get it swapped?
 

JMoore,
Were you able to get the HPOP swapped out? I've got an 03 that won't start and believe it's the HPOP but have a salvageable pump from an 05 engine I could use if this works. lmk

Worked fine. Here is a few pictures of another truck I'm building for a friend. You'll need the hpop and cover and the new style hpo rails and icp if you use the new pump because it doesn't have the icp fitting on the housing. Only the ipr. The blocks did not change only component locations. I like the later style factory pumps they really seem to hold up better it just requires the updated branch tubes as shown.

HPOP Swap
 

thanks for the reply, but the pics came up as jibberish. May be my settings or something. When you get a chance can you send to the email below or text to the cell #. I was reading up elsewhere and someone said you'd have to snake the branch tubes out of the heads??? I just put in injectors but only had to unbolt oil rail so I could move it a little. (I'm sure you know). I've got a complete 05 engine that was hydro locked, so should have all the parts. Pics if you can send pls....gonna be a long weekend, could afford not to have to get an HPOP if I have one that will work. any idea what fails, can i just swap actual pump?
Thanks,
Joe

jlove4159@hotmail.com
325-829-0544

What he said! I'm very curious about this swap. Will the newer ICP talk to the 03 computer? I know the FICMs are interchangable from 03-07, but that's about all I know electric wise on these trucks. "Damn it, Jim! I'm a doctor not an electrician!"

Where would I find this cover, rails and such? Is this where you would do the HPOP STC mod guys here are talking about that is 05 and up? There aren't many wrecking yards here in northern Nevada, and they don't have any diesels in them.

I robbed my ICP I'm using now from this 05 engine I have an put it on the one in the truck, an 03. It "seems" to communicate fine, but says ICP input is low on my cheapy scanner. Still need to test and make sure I'm not getting the 500psi before I pull the HPOP, but from what I've read they're notorious in the early years for failure.

I think The only difference in the ICPs is because the location, closer to the pump might show more presure than at valve cover, not sure

I have two different part numbers for the 03/04 ICP and the 05+ ICP.

03/early 04 ICP (pre 9/23/03): 3C3Z-9F838-EA
04 (post 9/23/03) 05-07: 4C3Z-9F838-AA

Not exactly sure what it means, but there are two different versions...

Well truck has been finished and i havent posted any updates. But the branch tubes will have to be changed with the heads off. You will need a later style hpop and cover along with updated icp sensor relocation. The owner of the truck says this has been by far the strongest he's ever seen this truck and its the best it starts since he had it bored .030 over and started running hot tunes. So i highly recommend anyone that has the engine out or heads off and trans out to give it a try.

Hi Jmoore, i'm in the middle of swapping engines. I had a 2006 which had roller pins lifter damage. i got a 2004 engine in good shape. I was comparing the hpop of the 2004 and 2006 and they look like they are different. My question is can i put the 2006 hpop, which is almost new, into the 2004 block?
Thanks

yes. but you will need to swap the branch tubes while the engine is out. it will require pulling the heads and rear cover and swapping them. once swapped the hpop's will swap right out. you will need the hpop cover and if you will look at the cover it only has the ipr valve in the cover the icp valve has been relocated to the front passenger side hpo rail. so it will take a little parts swapping but if the engine is out of the truck i highly recommend it. any time from this point on i am going to recommend just making the swap if i have the engine out and heads off for any reason. the last truck i swapped the pump on is loving it. says it is starting better than it ever has and seems to have alot more response when he is running his tunes :argh: i'm not driving the truck so i don't know just going off of customer feedback.

I wonder if it's worth mentioning to the tuners if you're running a different pump or not... not sure if it's even something to worry about or not. I've heard the 03 pumps run lower PSI than the newer one's.

Good on you for thinking outside the box like this! :rocking: I've heard it over and over that te 03-07 short block was all the same. That being said, it only makes sense that with a little parts swappage, a newer HPOP would fit in an older block.

If I ever get around to doing this, I would certainly mention this to a tune writer. Sorry, MDUB, "tuner" sounds like a punk kid in a Honda that needs to pull his pants up. :bat:

Info like this is why I enjoy this forum so much. :tu:

Hi Jim, got that baby all hooked in. It was awesome- we removed the rear cover like you said put in the06 branch tubes and the06 hpop fitted in like a baby. Now my next question- are those dowel pins that go through those branch tubes?

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Another quick question. Should i put the 2006 heads on the 2004 block or should I use the 2004 heads? I'm in the middle of putting this engine together and its my first time so I need all your help.
Thanks in advance

I think they are called stand pins or tubes. One is from the 2004 and one from the 2006 block.

You need the 06 stan pipes. You dont need the early style. If i was that far in and the 06 heads was known to be good heads i would stud them down and use the 06 stan pipes and hpo rails with the relocated icp sensor and rocker box covers.

Oh and you will need a 18 to 20mm dowel kit along with 20mm head gaskets.

Jim, This advice is worth a million! if you're ever in my neck of the woods the limo ride is on me! I'll be tearing into the engine tomorrow and after I get the 06 heads cleaned, fluxed and pressure tested - i'll let you know my progress and for a first timer there are going to be a lot of crazy questions posted along the way. Thanks for all your time and effort.

To put the 06 heads on, you need to know if they're 18mm or 20mm, if they're 20mm heads going on to the 18mm block, you'll need the correct gaskets (you can order 18mm or 20mm gaskets, and the adapters come with the gaskets now), you'll also need the rocker boxes and injector hold downs for the corresponding heads, they're all different.

I'm going with the 06 heads on the 04 block. As soon as I get a clean report I'll be posting the pics and the steps being taken. Somewhere in this forum it was mentioned that the glow plugs cannot be interchanged because of a length issue and that they will impact a piston. I am not clear as to how that would happen. The glow plugs from the 04 and the 06 were the same length.

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Got word from the machine shop and looks like my 06 heads are both toast. The exhaust valves were cracked all the way through - that was a bummer. So I'm going to give them the 04 heads and see what the report on that one is. I have sent the 06 injectors and 06 turbo in for a check. The injectors will be tested for $50 each and if they are not found to be at spec they will swap them out for reman ones, which I thought is a pretty good deal. Will keep you all posted

The glow plugs were probably the same length because you probably have the older heads, just like on my 06. They didn't go to the 20mm heads until mid-06. My build date was 11/05. The newer stuff is all different.

Who and where did you send the injectors? What is it they're checking for? I'd be REAL leery of reman injectors FYI.... nothing but horror stories.

Mike

Mine was built 3/06 - would that still be the "older stuff"?

I took the injectors and Turbo to B&G in Washington DC Fuel Injectors, Temple Hills, MD, B & D Fuel Injection Service is the outstanding east coast operation for diesel pumps, diesel and gas injectors, and turbochargers. I have heard good things about them here from the limousine guys in town. I will give you an update on the 06 heads which i took to NAPA machine shop here in Fairfax VA. I have the 04 heads which will be checked tomorrow and hopefully they don't come out cracked or worse. The machine shop guy told me that its extremely rare for him to find any 6.0 head that is not cracked! As far as the 06 heads go, I checked the dowel size and it was 20mm so I'm kinda stumped as to why the glow plugs are the same length. I will take a picture of the head and the glow plug from the 06 and 04. the build date of my vehicle is 08/06 as stated on the door sticker. It is an e450 2006 shuttle bus cutaway.
If the 04 heads come out cracked I will bawl my guts out on this forum! However if they do come out bad - what do I do?
The first photo shows the 04 head on the left and the 06 head on the right.
The second picture shows the 06 head in detail with the exhaust manifold still attached.

From what I see now from the P/N's, the early longer glow plugs were 03/early 04 only. 04.25 and up got the new shorter glow plug, so chances are you have late build 04 heads. So the glow plugs are the same, despite them being 18mm dowels.

bkmac - I believe you'd have the 18mm setup too, but I will look around and see. So many different things changed in that short amount of time it's hard keeping track of all of it.

Thanks for the clarification mdub. The machine shop showed me a hairline crack in almost one intake /exhaust valves across almost each cylinder. It was quite disappointing to hear since this bus basically went empty from stop to stop and barely had 80k on it. To top it off the oil used to be changed every 2500 miles because we knew of the issues with this motor. You can see how clean the head is as compared to the 2004. In any case I am trying my luck with the 04 heads.I have dropped of the heads and waiting for the machine shop to get back to me. I hope this nightmare ends soon!

So the valves themselves are cracked, or the heads near the exhaust valves are cracked? If it's just the valves, get new valves. I've heard of some shops repairing these cracks (in the heads) too if the heads themselves are cracked, as long as they're not too bad.

Unfortunately this is common with our crummy heads. New heads from Ford are about $1k a piece, and they come with all of the valvetrain already in them (valves/springs etc). Just FYI.

Hi Mdub, The hairline cracks were visible to the eye once the valves were removed. They are in the heads themselves. The machine shop here in Fairfax says it cannot repair those. He was saying that in order to repair them some shops heat them to cherry red and then put some molten iron in them ~ i don't know if this is correct but it straight from the horses mouth! I was looking on ebay, just in case the 04 heads heads come back cracked, and the odessa heads are for about $1100 for a pair. I'm still waiting on the machine shop to give me a report on the 04 heads.
If the 04 heads do come out damaged - what should I do? The block is an 04. Should I get 04 heads with 18mm or the 06 heads with the 20mm? I have the 06 engine from which I cannibalized all the parts. I am using the 06 injectors.

I would get whatever heads you can get your hands on. Probably look for a set on the boards in good shape. I'm cheap like that. Just find a set someone has already gone through. Unfortunately finding cracked heads is about as easy as finding a blown EGR cooler.

Just got a report from the machine shop- the 04 heads were cracked! No surprise-I have another set of heads that I'll send in for testing and then just go for rebuilt heads. There is a shop in Atlanta called Allied motors that repairs cracked heads and brings them to like new for $425 a piece. I might go that route should this set of heads turn out toast! I got my turbo fixed for $650. The variable vanes were frozen. This is from that same shop I mentioned in my earlier post. There was a bit of miscommunication on my part as far as the injectors. They charge $50 to check and if they find something wrong they wont charge the check fee and sell you a rebuilt for $225. Well 7 of them checked out fine and 1 needs to be replaced. This engine really costs! I'll keep you updated

I have been searching the web inside and out for this forum.. a friend of mine bought a 6.0 replacement with black Onyx head gaskets and ARP head studs.. to my surprise I unwrapped engine and found it had newer style oil branch, instead of replacing branch I opted to upgrade Hpop to later one , found one with cover that I bought and will upgrade fitting before I install it, I have ICP on right valve cover so that wont be an issue, so what Im reading I should be able to bolt new pump in , install cover and plug IPR in, will 03-04 turbo pedestal fit ok as well as EGR cooler? just trying to get what info I can.. Thank you for any help ,Bill Rice

You are in good shape, bolt it up and go. If you have a late 04 then the swap is easy to convert especially if you got the later branch tube.
I just did the same thing and it was on an early 04, had to swap rocker boxes,valve covers,branch tube, oil rails, stand pipes,HPOP, hpop cover,new rear main seal,.
the turbo pedestal you have is the same as 05 and later so it is a non issue. you have a late 04/because you have icp on pass side valve cover/ the only difference in a late 04 and the 05 and up is the HPOP,hpop cover, and branch tube, the rest of the engine is the same.