erratic idle and surge at very low speed
 

Wanted thoughts and opinions on this problem... My truck a month or so back started idling somewhat rough and would want to surge forward at red lights when stopped and on the brake. I changed oil and filters and added Rev X and the issues when away completely...for a month. Now after around 1000 miles they are resurfacing again along with somewhat of a surge in throttle at low speeds (around 5-10 miles and hour steady). I am thinking stiction in the injectors. Fuel additives dont seem help the issue, i have switched from XDP to REVX distance plus to Redline 85 etc... any thoughts on the matter would be greatly appreciated. The truck is a 2003 F250 6.0, has 54,000 miles on it, was head studded, bulletproof diesel egr cooler'd, new oil cooler'd and turbo split and cleaned at Left Coast Diesel in Concord, CA just recently. No excessive black smoke, may be a little down on power at higher speeds but i am not positive because i am changing power programmer quite often.

This is a sensor issue, either ICP sensor I think, they had surge issues with this motor and I can't remember if they reflashed the computer or if they had to replace a sensor, it is common and very repairable, I'm sure someone else will chime in with the right fix. Bob

thanks bob for the input... check this update.. Added Redline 85 plus diesel fuel enhancer last night and today running smooth. The problem is intermitent so i'm not sure if it has actually stopped the idling problem, or if its just a good running day. I still want thoughts from anyone willing to respond. thanks

Intermittent issues like this are almost always electrical. It really needs to be hooked up to a scanner. If you added Rev-X and your problems went away though, it could be bad injectors as well. My guess is it's a combination of things at this point. Sticky injectors wont cause it to surge like that though, it will fall on it's face when injectors stick. If the spool valve is stuck and not moving, it's not spraying diesel in there correctly.

Just curious Mud.. You got plates on your truck like that? Something like Mudwizer? IM in W/C and see a truck wiht plates similair to that near daily. Been to left coast myself and so far they seem to have pretty good service. although I just bought Revx from them but I checked out the shop. But if ya take your truck to a dealer take it to Duprat in Dixon. Best service I have ever had from anyone. Went in about 3 weeks ago to have truck scanned for bad glowplugs. They replaced plugs and tested it. Found I had some bad injectors. Tested again and it ran rough so they went through the whole truck. Ended up replacing oil and egr coolers. glowplugs and injectors plus the harnesses. Reconditioned the turbo and a few other things. Thank god I still have my warranty.

Wish i could give ya some info for your surging problem.

no, im not running mudweiser plates... someone else. Cool to hear from someone in my area though... I'm out in Livermore. Trucks dark grey crew cab, 8"lift on 37's with black monster xds. Left coast has had the truck on scanner when this truck first started its sh*t. Nothing came up out of the ordinary, they said everything looked good, but could hear and feel the the stumbling idle. Thats when they recommended Rev X. It worked instantly. Today is day two with the Redline 85 plus fuel additive and still running smooth.... Im almost convinced its injector stiction now. But am still open to ideas. Thanks to the few that have responded. Wish I still had a warranty... Dumped about 11grand into the truck since December!

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:s:

11 K? OUCH. Hope that redline stuff works out for ya. IM down in Livermore from time to time. have my 5th stored out there. So might have seen ya around. As for that other truck running some plates with Mudwizer or something. I think its a black or white F350. Ill probably see ti tomorrow during the mornhing comute. Oh and Welcome to Diesel Bombers!! Lots of great info here for these trucks.

Fuel additive and Rev-X oil additive are on two different sides of the injector. Rev-X is on the oil side, and is what will cure stiction. I've never had any fuel additive do that.

I don't know my self because I am new to the diesel world, but Im told the injector can stick on either side (oil side or fuel side) hence the redline is working. 4 days now and is still running smooth.

Update... still have occasional idle surging... happens a few times every couple of weeks... been running Amzoil diesel concentrate and Amzoil cetane boost with fill ups... Seems to help symptoms rather than running straight diesel... Anyhow, took truck twice now to Local diesel performance shop.... The did a balance test on the injectors etc... and don't see anything wrong...with anything. i have noticed no power loss. Boost is good. She chugs when put in drive and idling forward when cold started, otherwise runs great aside from idling rough every now and then. Surge at red lights in gear on the brake is starting again. No check engine lights, no DTC's found by STC programmer. What the hell is going on!!! Already running RevX

Just out of sheer curiosity... when you first turn the key in the morning, do the injectors buzz? Or do they buzz when you shut the truck off? When's the last time this truck had an updated flash from Ford?

Yes injectors buzz when key is turned to start, havent noticed when shutting down... Probably been along time since dealer flash, i stay away from the dealer as much as possible.

The 03's originally had it the other way around, so it has had the updated flash at some point. They used to buzz on shut down and they found out it did more harm than good. When's the last time the EGR valve was cleaned?

Ive cleaned the egr valve several times since ive owned it, last time was about a month ago. Is your innovative extreme street tune pretty smokey? When i get on it fairly hard it gets pretty smokey in my truck. (Black smoke). I keep thinking its injector issue but with no codes, no lights etc...im just trouble shooting blind. Having the Revx work for over a month makes me think its an injector.

Well with HEUI injectors, usually the spool vavle sticks, and it wont fire fuel at all, unlike a common rail injector where those stick, they flood the cylinder with fuel until it melts the piston. So if you have excessive smoke, it's probably not an injector.

My X-street tune would put out a puff until the turbo lit and under WOT there is just the slightest haze, it cleans up real nice.

I've searched quite a bit on this, and there seems to be a lot of different things that can cause the surge. Hard to say. Really needs to be hooked up to a scanner to see what is going on.

Its been on a scanner twice already, balance test on injectors etc. Taking it to a very repitable diesel shop here in Cali called Left Coast Diesel. Both times showing good numbers on everything... they can't find anything wrong but agreed with me the first time i brought it there that the idle was erratic. They were the ones who hooked me up with the RevX which worked for awhile...or so I think. They were the ones who did the headstuds, turbo split, oil cooler and bulletproof diesel egr cooler on my truck....The bitch is I can't pinpoint anything really if the truck doesnt kick a engine light or breaks down, especially if scanner tests come up good. On the otherside of things the extreme street tune only gets real smokey when I get on it hard. Power seems a little flat in the bottom of the rpm range compared to the crazy larry tune, but really rockets once mid rpms are reached.... Planning on throwing a Garrett Powermax on her, thoughts on that? Living in California really sucks because of the smog laws, so i feel really limited on what I can do performance wise.... Almost worth it to me to move out of state. Thanks Mdub for trying to help, discouraging issue this one is!

When mine has the surge, I found out it is the ICP sensor connection where the wires plug into the ICP at the passenger side valve cover area. when mine has been surging, i can pop the hood and move the plug at the ICP connection and i can get the same surge while moving it. One of these days i'l get to ordering a new sensor..Think they are around $78..could also just be the wire connector instead of the sensor.

http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:A...JnMHAfSfuBub1g

http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:A...ujKcgDyL5Ss5yA

The ICP could be checked with the scanner. In fact if you have a labtop you can scan it yourself using your SCT and the free software on their site called "livelink". You need to check desired ICP vs. actual ICP, and also IPR duty cycle. I'm not sure if it will help or not, but it will at least eliminate it as a possibility.

where is the ICP on the 03 6.0, under the turbo or on the passenger valve cover? How much from dealer? Im about to go just buy one and install to see if it helps... Also wanted peoples input on the Garrett powermax turbo...would like to clean up some of the black smoke the innovative xtreme street tune is blowin, and pic up a few ponies. 6.4 Banjo bolts and updated blue fuel spring? Worth it on a truck that unfortunately needs to be smogged bi annually? Whats the advantage?

In order...

ICP is in the back under the turbo on an 03
I see ICPs on ebay for like $60 I think... P/N...
4C3Z-9F-838A
Powermax is a great turbo, made to be a stock replacement, but will support a little more power than stock. Supposed to have a wicked whistle too! Some guys run 155's and a few run 190's with the powermax and put down some decent numbers. You may also want to look into the drop in batmowheels for the stock chargers too, $400.
6.4 banjos are a cheap inexpensive and worth while mod, the stock check valves are just the most restrictive point in the fuel system, so this helps. You wont notice anything per se, but it will keep fuel flowing to those injectors.
Blue spring is to bump up fuel pressure. A little while back Ford released new updated fuel filters. The filter that goes on the frame mounted pump has a new extension to it with an o-ring. They're supposed to seal better and keep more crud from making past, but at the same time they will bring fuel pressure down. Ford released this spring to compensate for that, but decided against telling anyone about it! Anyways, it's a very worthwhile mod.

If you're doing these fuel mods I HIGHLY suggest you get a fuel pressure gauge if you don't already have one. Doing these mods IMO is kind of pointless if you don't have a base line to work off of. I mean, they wont hurt, but you don't know where you're at now. I can't see either mod effecting your smog test one bit.
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mdub, whats up with batmowheel? Sounds frickin gay! i assume its a new compressor wheel... Worth 400 or should I spend the 1200 or 1300 on the powermax? I dont want to short cut on this truck so the money is not a option. i.e. in 13,000 worth of upgrades now. How hard is the banjo bolt install, anything to be aware of on the install?? Im sure there is a thread on this already but I dont have the energy to search for it. If there is can u send the link? Thanks, long week of work and too many beers after.... On another note, i'm running the Opti-lube XPD and noticed a much smoother idle. I'm sold and not switching! p.s. the idle issue has not resurfaced since i changed my fuel filters a few days ago and noticed one of the electrical plugs on the frame mounted fuel pump not completely plugged in! keeping my fingers crossed....could it be?

Very well could have been it.

I like the Opti-lube stuff myself, and there is testing to back it up.

Batmowheels are cool man! haha. The blades of the compressor wheel are wavy, instead of normal straight. This in effect lets the blade have more surface area, while stuffing it into a smaller package, they seem to be the new hot setup, and in the last week or so they have released drop in wheels for 6.0 and 6.4 stock turbos. I believe there is also a batmowheel upgrade for the powermax. If you have the money, just get the powermax, and you can always upgrade later.

As for the banjo's, it'll be stupid easy if you have a single alternator truck, if you have the duals, like I do.... PITA. Still do-able, just a lot more tedious and time consuming. If you follow the fuel lines from the fuel bowl on the motor to the front of the motor, you will see where they are bolted to the head. You need to just pull those bolts and put the new ones in. Make sure to use new copper crush washers too (you can probably re-use the old ones, but new ones are cheap). The part numbers for the bolts and washers are posted here, just do a quick search and search under posts by powerstroketech87.

well....pulled these codes today with the SCT programmer, p0603 and p132B. Anyone have ideas? The idleing issue seems to be more frequent. I believe the second code is a boost performance code, WTF turbo was split and cleaned within six months ago? Really! Mdub, what say you on this? I hope i'm getting closer to a solution on this because I told my wife today i'm really close to trading in on a Cummins or a Duramax!!! :argh:

P0603 is KAM or keep alive memory, meaning the batteries have been unhooked recently possibly? Is this true? Have you been programming and going back to stock at all, that could also possibly do it. The P132b is a boost code, and everything I see about it says to tear the turbo down and clean it... though you did that recently. I also found this bit of info...

http://www.fordinstallersupport.com/...atsnew/DTL.pdf

It's a LOT of info, but some good stuff about the 132b code. I've also heard a few cases where an aftermarket air filter could do this.

Any idea the last time the truck had an updated flash from Ford?

mdub, not sure on the updated flash, have it market under the hood will post tomorrow. thought i had the problem solved when i replaced the icp sensor over the weekend, but.....no. idle sucked again inconsistently today. On to the FICM volt check. Am i checking for DC voltage? I know very little on electrical....sorry. Car stereo installing is the extent of my experience with auto electrical.

Find out when it was flashed last. When you shut the truck off does it buzz after shut down, or does it buzz when you first turn the key to start it up?

buzz before start up...last reflash that i know of is reprogram pcm 3U7A-FUE on 12/14/04. so now here is the list of trouble shooting that's been done to date. Left Coast Diesel on scanner for cylinder contribution test, and test...tested turbo, ran the truck underload up to 3500-4000 rpm...etc. I replaced the icp sensor, cleaned the maf, egr valve. checked volts on both batteries also under load both good. Did ficm volt test with key on position not running, cranking and running... all numbers a hair over 48 volts. Wtf! Fuel pressure is my next plan of attack. Can i pick up a cheap mechanical gauge from auto parts store, where can it be hooked into? i see a alan head fitting near the upper fuel filter housing. Is this a port which a gauge can be screwed into?
symptoms are: runs great 50% of the time, Very little smoke on innovative extreme street tune.

sometimes idles rough, when this happens; if i get on it is boggish smokes alot of black smoke, doesnt want to shift down. Boost numbers seem to be appropriate but the fire just doesnt want to light. If i step on it really hard, black cloud, then she tears ass and the smoke clears up.
Running REV X oil supl. Optilube XPD fuel additive, changing oil every 4000ish miles, fuel filters replaced a week or so ago, ARP headstuds, gaskets, oil cooler, bulletproof egr cooler, turbo split and clean, bulletproof turbo drain etc were done in January. 56000 miles.
I feel like this:scare2:

Man I wish you were closer so I could put a scanner on it myself. I would still really like to know what desired ICP vs actual ICP looks like. Again, you can read this yourself with your SCT and a labtop. I also can't help but wonder what condition the IPR is in.

You need something more serious than the SCT to pull codes with. IDS, or Autoenginuity would help. I find a LOT more codes on problematic trucks with Autoenginuity than I do with my SCT.

Also would be interesting to see VGT solenoid duty for the turbo.

To answer your question, the easiest way to check the fuel pressure is a cheap mechanical gauge, run it out of the hood by the windshield and then hold it down with one of the wipers, then go out and run the truck. If you're getting black smoke it tells me you're getting fuel and not enough air though. Which seems odd since it only happens some times, and not all times.

One more simple thing I want you to try out. I'm starting to think this may be an electrical issue. You might have a wire harness chaffing somewhere causing this erratic idle, which only seems to happen some of the time. Find your EBP sensor/tube. Pull both out, inspect and clean. I had an issue with mine where I thought the turbo was sticking. My boost would fall to 0 going down the road and if I rolled into it I could leave a black cloud for miles before it would downshift and re-light the turbo. The EBP (exhaust back pressure) sensor caused it. There is a tube coming off of the exhaust manifold, up to this sensor. The tubes can sometimes become clogged and the sensors become dirty. When this happens, it simulates a sticky turbo. Mine did it intermittently (which told me the turbo wasn't actually sticking), and it was because the wires going to the sensor had chaffed. Had to pull the plug all apart, and re-wrap those wires, problem went away. It's amazing how one or two little chaffed wires make an entire truck run like crap.

which side is the ebp tube on left or right? Thanks for helping mdub. Im going to send you a case of beer in the mail when i figure this one out bro!

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believe i found it on the drivers side... pulled tube and shot maf sensor cleaner through it... a little dirty but not plugged. Will have to pull sensor off another day since i ran out of day light. is the sensor expensive? I may just replace it.

Not sure, I have a spare sensor for an 03/04 truck sitting here if you want it. Just try cleaning it first though, they just get gummed up with soot and crap. Imagine how the EGR valve looks, this sees the same crap.

thanks for the offer mdub, but not needed. Last night i broke the sensor off trying to remove it from the elbow which is attached to the bracket... held the elbow with a wrench while i was loosening but to no avail... picked up a new one and easy outed the remainder of it from the elbow... installing new one in a few hours. The elbow was crudded up to the point the inside was half the diameter of its original size... tube was pretty good and inside bottom of sensor didnt seem too bad. See where i am at after driving and i will post. Really appreciate your time.

No worries man. Work is paying me here to sit at this computer anyways, might as well do something useful! Hope that works out for you. I hate to see someone just throw money/parts at a truck that isn't 100% diagnosed, but it's hard to do over the net sometimes.

u've been a big help mdub... even if i'm not fixing the problem, the way I look at it is the parts i through at it now will be that much less i have to do later...hopefully. I am sure learning a lot too. Knowledge is power! I have the truck back together but am hella tired so won't be driving till tomarrow. May take her in friday for gears and lockers. I need something new to focus on other than this irritating problem!

i dont know if this would help but i had some serges with the truck at red lights too.... i tried everything to fix it like fuel additives and such and ya ended up bringing the truck to ford and getting it fixed... the thing that was causing it was a faulty computer harness. im not sure what caused it and i found that i had codes popping up every where and almost everything. the truck really bad and also the injector pressure where way outa wack.. but ya as soon i got the harness replaced it went away so this may help or not.. but i payed alot of money to get it fixed

THE VERDICT IS IN!!!!!!!!!!Truck is fixed after months! IPR was bad.... in all replaced icp and ebp sensors before discovering the ipr was bad. Mdub, you sir where on the right track.. First two times at left coast we saw nothing out of the ordinary on the scanner, then this friday we looked at it again. Seemed good at lower rpms, but when looking at higher rpms 3000plus, icp was all over the place. Truck was missing like crazy trying to hold rpms at 3000rpm. Icp had just been replaced so we went to IPR. After replacing yesterday morning the truck purs like a kitten again and pulls as hard as a freight train. No more huge clouds of smoke. Im not sure if i just noticed the symptoms really early or what...but it was a evolving problem which slowly got worse over 5-6 months. Anyway she is good for now. Thanks again to all the helped and responded!:jump:

Glad to hear you finally got that figured out! And thanks for posting the results too. :c:

mdub, looking to order coolant bypass filter...in your opinion is sinisters bypass legit? Would like to flush system, change coolant and replace thermostate. Thermostate replacement as easy as a 5.7 chevy gas engine or is it more involved?

I can't comment on the thermostat as I haven't done one myself, but I don't believe it's very difficult to do.

Sinister makes a nice kit. I use the dieselsite.com kit, they both do the same. Sinister is more "colorful" for sure, just depends which one you think looks better. I think Sinister also uses crimped lines, and the dieselsite uses hose clamps, so the sinister might be a hair better now. When you get filters for these, make sure you use their filters or if you find a replacement, do NOT use "charged" filters, it will continually release crud through the system and re-catch it in the filter. You'll take the filter off and think something is seriously wrong, and it will be, but it's from the filter. So stick to non-charged filters. I just buy the baldwin units that dieselsite uses.

i believe they sell wix filters with sinisters kit. They alright for this bypass? Mdub... awhile ago we touched on the subject of my truck almost overheating while ac blasting, in fourwheel drive crawling about 5 miles an hour up our very steep drive way. Most of the road is steep hills... about a 10 minute crawl from the main road. Anyway, it got hot again yesterday coming home and I don't believe I heard the fan kick in. I stopped at the top of the hill and the temperature came down fairly quickly. The fan is turning while the motor is running but I didnt hear it kick into "high gear" while the temp was rising. So question, clutch fan bad? Or is there a fuse or relay that turns it on when at a certain temp?

There is a sensor for that, I do believe they have been known to go bad. I think you can actually monitor it through one of the scanners.