6.0l rough idle, diesel in exhaust, blowing white smoke
 

This is probably going to turn into a novel, but ya'll need the entire gist of things to make an accurate call. The truck is a ford f250 6.0l daily driver with the occasional give it hell. This all started after installing cylinder heads(remans from odessa cylinder heads), new oil cooler, stand pipes, and dummy plugs. Mods are in signature and no check engine light or codes are being thrown.

I recently put new heads on my 6.0l because there was diesel in my coolant. It only happened while it had ran for some time and was seen in the degas tank. It was determined to be the injector cups, but instead of changing cups out I went ahead and put new (remanufactured) heads on it just to be sure. Naturally I put new head gaskets on it along with every other gasket, plus a new oil cooler just to get it out of the way. After reassembly it was smoking and had a rough idle, but I thought nothing of it since it was the frst time starting up and it had air and possibly a little water in the cylinders. But after 15 mins or so it didn't stop and had only worsened. It smelt of diesel instead of a sweet smell of coolant so fuel is my next thought and usually it's a bad FICM, broken nozzle, or injector going out that will cause excess fuel to be dumped into cylinder. So I check injectors and their fine then I move on to the FICM, where I end up replacing it and the problem still continues. Next (after reading and searching many websites with no help), I go and check injector tips/nozzles again and their fine so I replace the two "bad" injectors(#6, #8) problem solved, NOT! Still smokes horribly and with the exhaust manifold lose while running, diesel is dripping out of it and when you take it off you can see diesel residue in the exhaust ports. So my next thought, well one of my first thoughts but was ruled out, is the copper crush washer. By this time I have my reman injectors, from NewJerseyItem, so I pull the injectors again and replace all o-rings and install injectors. The problem still continues. All in all the injectors have been taken out 4 or more times and new o-rings were used every time. Then I noticed it, while taking the o-rings off I didn't give it much thought, but the white o-rings on the leaking cylinders didn't appear used at all. They were still round and most of the white coating was intact versus the other injectors that their lower o-ring was oval and could tell it had been sealing off. So you think their not lining up or seating, but 4 out of 4 times? I just cant see that happening and the ridge on the copper washer is smashed as though its seating against the cup properly. Is it bad cups or is there anyway the cups were improperly put in the first time? Thats my last guess I just can't think anymore I'm so frustrated with it.

Does anyone have any ideas or know the problem perhaps? If it matters when diesel first started showing up in my coolant, I was draining it and put green coolant in it not even thinking about it. But that's just so you know everything, I don't see it being related and was corrected not long after. It may be something simple and I'm overlooking I don't know and I'm open to anyones recommendations. I'm to the point where I just wanna drag it in the field and lite it on fire. So ya'll are my last hope before taking it to a shop and spending who knows how much. Any questions please ask. Thank you.

Wow man, tough luck.

Personally I wouldn't use any injectors but Ford injectors, some of those "rebuilds" are sketchy. I've heard of some places "rebuilding" by simply swapping on new o-rings and calling them good. Seriously. It sounds like injector issues to me still, though why they wouldn't seat properly would be beyond me. Have you tried calling Odessa and explaining it to them? To see if there is possibly an issue with the heads themselves? I have heard good things about Odessa.

No I haven't called them yet but I intend on doing it tomorrow and hopefully it's happened before and they say it's definately the head(well it would be nice anyway). I'm just glad you've heard good things about them because I really didnt know going into it. They were cheap and I wasn't sure if my heads were cracked(should've had them magnafluxd) but was in a hurry and because of the cups went ahead an used them and they were easy to deal with so I thought nothing about it. And when my heads arrived they looked legit. But I'll know more tomorrow on that situation. And maybe it's the injectors still, I think I'm gonna swap the "bad" injectors for ones I know are good just do some swaping around to see if it is in fact the injectors. Maybe I fu#ked up when I did the whole remanufactured buy.

And another reason I didn't think it was the injectors was they worked fine before I changed the heads. Now I don't know how easily they can be messed up but I just took them out and put them each in a plastic bag til it was reassembly time an took them out, cleaned them with a tooth brush sprayed them off and let them dry then put em back in with all new o-rings.

A single piece of small dirt would stop up one of these injectors in a heartbeat. They say anything you need to do on them should be done in a bath of clean fresh diesel. It wouldn't take much at all to mess one up.

Ok I'll definately be more careful than I have been with them and try giving them a bath in clean diesel. Maybe something will break loose.

Just out of curiosity, is it possible the old copper crush washer is still in there and you're putting another one on the injector and then essentially have two stacked up in there? That would still show it being crushed, but not allowing the injector to seat all the way?

Honestly to me, it sounds like crappy injectors though, tough to say. Did you try calling Odessa yet?

Sounds like you have enough time stuck in this truck to have swapped in a cummins! :w2:

A couple of injectors and a FICM? I'd love to see someone complete an engine swap in the time it takes me to swap those few pieces.

Ill check on the copper washer idea, it would make sense but i've accounted for all that I've taken off so I don't know. No word from odessa yet hopefully I can get an answer tomorrow. I'll definately post the response I get. My dad has an 06 Dodge QC dually and it has plenty of problems when it wants so you can't act like their perfect. And the powerstrokes just look a lot better in my opinion, plus they can have a lot of power without all the noise. But I can't say I don't enjoy the sound of a good cummins every now and then either.

I'll stick with the powerstroke for now. And I agree with Mdub707 on the swap time.

took me 2 months and now i have a nice simple motor :jump: lol but everybody different

Any update on this?

Alright, I've been a little busy with life and just got back to the truck a day ago. Since my last post I have not had a chance to pull the injectors out, but I've acquired Autoenginuity w/enhanced ford package. So maybe it'll help. When I plugged it up I set it to look for misfires on the suspected injectors and nothing. I turned off the #6 and #8 injector, not at same time, and there was really no difference and continued to smoke like hell. The FICM is good on volts, and there are no codes. But the injector control pressure is 650 psi @ idle and when I unplug it goes to 870 psi. Does anyone know the correct psi @ 700 rpm idle? And another thing that seemed off was the injector timing, it is -3.58 at idle. Normal? The control pressure regulator is at 25% and the fuel pulse time is 1500.00 usec. If yall have any questions about certain numbers let me know. If everything seems normal then i'll pull the injectors and check o'rings and Cu washers.

heavy white smoke= coolant

I flushed all the coolant during the head change and all of the coolant lines are off while its running. The smoke is not sweet smelling, it smells like diesel. Over fueling at idle could produce tons of white smoke as well. As long as the air to fuel ratio is off.

Probably junk injectors then. ICP sounds normal for at idle.

The only ford injectors I can find are remans, is that all they sell?

Yeah they're all remans, no such thing as new 6.0 injectors anymore...

However, some places definition of "reman" is different than others. For some, like Ford, that's a complete rebuild with new spool valves. For other places, that's slapping new o-rings on the outside and sending it....

That's what I expected but I wanted to make sure before I go and spend $500 on two injectors. Hopefully the other company just screwed me over and its bad injectors, problem solved. Then it'll only be a $300 dollar loss. I should have them installed tonight and I'll post the end results.

You can always try swapping injectors in different holes and see if the problem follows too, that would either tell you it IS indeed the injector, or something else with that specific cylinder.

Anxious to see what you find here...

Did you buy injectors somewhere else first?

After reassembly when it first started I suspected injectors and ordered some from, Injectors and Phones, they stated they were sonic cleaned and bench tested. And I searched for negative comments an found nothing so I went with them mainly because they were $160 ea. Now I know cheap = junk a lot of times but I'm tired of dumping money into truck so was trying to save a little for once. But yea those are the injectors I replaced my factory ones with. (I still have my old ones haven't sent cores back yet)

And I had meant to swap injectors to other cylinders to check for persisting problem, so I'll go ahead an do that real quick. By just trying to find answers ASAP I'm getting ahead of myself.

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Well I swapped the injectors around and when I first pulled the injectors out I was sure it was the injectors. They finally showed that they are sealing off so the cup issue is out the window. Anyway the suspected injectors had all kinds of sh#t on the nozzles. So I put em back in and the problem continued but it was at the same ports as if I'd done nothing. But as bad as the injectors looked I still think they're trashed.

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Well I went and bought two ford injectors and plan on replacing all of them while I'm at it. So I'll know shortly if it was a bad choice of injectors to begin with.

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Well, waste of $600 dollars, it didn't fix the problem. It's mainly on the #6 cylinder so I'm gonna check the fuel rail with air pressure and see if its leaking anywhere. I'm just gonna pressure up everything I can and see if something gives.

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I'll probably be done with 6.0s after this is over. I love the look of the powerstroke but this is wearing me out.

Yeah at $165 you can pretty much bet those injectors are junk. I bet they were crap cores that they didn't do squat with. The biggest issue with 6.0 injectors is the stiction, so if they don't replace spool valves...

You can always put your less expensive injectors back in and sell your others off that you just bought, or vice versa.

You're still getting codes for cylinder 6? How do the rocker assemblies look? How about the pushrod? Anything bent/broken/out of place?

You said you put them back in, but didn't tell us if you swapped holes or what? Did you take your number 6 injector and put it in a hole that had no issues? You said you were having issues with 6 and 8, did you just swap those two around, or did you swap 6 and 8 with 2 and 4 or something along those lines? One bad injector in a bank can cause the others to throw codes, with the problem injector never throwing a code too. With the two Ford injectors in, are you still getting fuel dumping down into the exhaust system? Are the clips on the injector harness clipping in all the way? What are the exact codes you're getting, or are you just getting contribution faults?


Have you done a cylinder contribution test or an injector buzz test? When you turn the key forward at first and you can hear the FICM buzz the injectors, does it sound ok? How are your batteries?

Yes I swapped the #6 inj with the #2 injector and the same with #4 and #8. Problem continued at the number #6 cyl exhaust port( diesel coming out of it) and a little on #8. Now I then went an purchased two new injectors from ford and nothing changed.

Now before all the swapping of injectors I had done a buzz test and got the OK from AE. And up until putting in the new injectors in hadnt had a contribution code or any code for that matter. After putting in the new injectors in #6 n #8, I now have p0284 #8 contribution balance code being thrown. After checking connection and clearing it persists.

Now on the bent pushrods or rockers. I didn't notice anything wrong with the rockers, everything seemed to be in order. Now when it's running, the turbo is surging. Similar to when you first crank one up and it will kinda da da da da da and then straighten out(or mine did when it was cold or long interval between cranks) if that makes sense. And also I can go to the front where the cold air intake inlet is and it sounds like a knock, but you can only here it through intake. So it may be a bent pushrod I don't know I'll have to take the valve cover off and really give it a good check to be sure.

As far as how the engine actually sounds, at idle sounds pretty much normal aside from idling rough. When I rev the engine up it kinda lags for a second(it takes a little longer to rev up, sluggish) and then the turbo will come up and by that time theres so much smoke, but isn't making odd noises while at 2000-2500 rpm. It's only when I let off the throttle it knocks once while transitioning from 2000 to 700rpm but it's not real obvious so I didn't notice before.

I just recorded a video of it running at idle I can try to post. It may give some clues as to what the problem is. And the batteries were a little weak at first so I took the ones off my 7.3l an nothing changed.

How's that wiring harness look, I'd be going over that with a fine tooth comb. What happens if you unplug #8 injector and try starting again, see if it changes? Sounds like you can rule out an injector.

Have you checked your ICP readings yet? Can you read ICP actual and ICP desired for us? Might be an issue with that too...

Could this be an issue, on the ficm, I purchased it from us diesel parts an it's pre-programmed. Has anyone heard of some issue with them? I just put it on during this rebuild, so is it possible that its the FICM not being programmed properly? I ordered it for an 07 and later found that the motor is an 06 motor. The intake sticker was messed up an was not legible. Though it states the FICMs are the same for those years so I don't know just a thought.

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I unplugged the # 8 injector first and nothing changed then I unplugged #6 injector TOO. And with both of them unplugged still idled and acted as if nothing was unplugged and still heavily smoking. So is it possible that theres a crack from the fuel rail to the chamber or any thoughts? In my opinion it's not good, plus just turning off #7 alone(or any other #1-5) kills the engine. I suddenly see $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

ICP Readings

while cranking-the pressure was 1420-1460psi, desired was 1447psi. Regulator 45%, volts 0.88-1.75v

Running- 1100-1175psi, desired 1130-1200psi, regulator 33-38%, volts 1.2-1.56v

5 min of idle-950-980psi, desired 950-1022psi, regulator 32.8-34%, volts 1.15-1.3v

You can use any year FICM on any year 6.0, shouldn't matter at all. I use 03 FICM's on my 06 because I prefer the older programming.

To me it sounds like you've either got an issue with that FICM, despite what voltages it's reading, or there is something messed up with the wiring harness. If you've got two brand new injectors in those holes and when you unplug the harness nothing changes in the way it runs...sounds like those injectors are not being fired properly to me.

A crack from the fuel rail? Doubtful, the rail runs through the middle of the head, you'd likely have all sorts of other issues.

Not sure where exactly you're at in Arkansas, but BTS is in Northern Arkansas. He would be a great guy to bring this too as well. He's hard to get a hold of on the phone, so just shoot him and email. That or try calling right at 8AM on the dot as he's walking in the door and before he's crawling under a truck.

You really need to get a cylinder contribution test done and an injector buzz test at this point.

Real quick, the only thing I did different this time than others was I retaped the injector harness an main harness. You know how that black cloth tape from the factory falls apart. So I took it off, cleaned the glue off, and put a wrap with new electrical tape. Is it possible that's where something came undone an I taped over it or something similar? Be a good guess on where to start looking anyway? I plan on going over it at the connector ends for sure but it was something I forgot to mention earlier on.

If the wire harness was so bad to the point it was falling apart, I would have just replaced it myself. The wire harness' on most modern diesels seem to be ridiculously sensitive.

No the wires were fine and it an it ran fine before. I'm just really picky and the harness was all sticky and just the tape was coming off in some spots. So I rewrapped it. And a new harness is like $500 or more. Everyone likes to take advantage of the 6.0 owners. Not to change the subject but I recently ran into a guy with a 2011 6.7l cummins and tranny for $3500 so I could go that route. Or just sell it thats a good deal for cummins. Anyway I'll clean up and check the harness then post if it fixes it.

:ty: :nice: Now your thinking in the right way!! :jump: If i read this right it this cummins and trans is to put in the ford??

Yea a 6.7l cummins in a 07 Ford F250. But I'll only put a 6.7l in it if I do it at all. Plus I'd like to run an allisons tranny on it instead of the torqshift I have now. But I definately won't run a dodge tranny even though the price includes one. If I'm gonna do it, I'll do it big, and I don't care what it cost as long as it's built to last.

However, I'm gonna fully try to fix the 6.0 before I make a drastic change like that. If the solution price for the 6.0 outweighs that of the 6.7l I can get then I'll probably do it, but if the solution is a harness or similar then I'll hold off. Hell I'd put a ISX15 cummins in one if they didn't weigh 3,000 lbs. An ISL9 would be nice too.

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OK I tested the engine and injector harness. I tested them electrically and looked over them for any problems an all seems ok. So who knows.

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Is it possible it could be low compression? I meanit didn't have those symptoms before but it could have been on the verge and now it's just gotten low enough its not burning all the fuel off. I'll know when the tester gets here but it was just a thought. I really don't think that's it just because theres still fuel being poured into the cylinders with the injectors unplugged. I think it's the cups, no way are the copper rings going to fail 6 out of 6 times. Any ideas on cheap way to get cups out?

It could be the heads were just crap from the beginning I suppose. Did you ever end up calling up Odessa? The fuel is coming from somewhere. Did you look over the nozzles really well, they can crack and leak fuel like this too. Check your oil level, make sure the crankcase isn't filling up with fuel.

That's a really good deal on the 6.7 cummins. I wouldn't bother wasting money putting an allison behind it, keep the Dodge tranny and just have it built, WAY easier and money ahead.

I wouldn't even go 6.7 route personally, but that's just me. 5.9 CR would be my choice. Check your local laws first, a lot of states require the engine going in to be the same year or newer too. Obviously the 6.7 would work, but I'm not a fan of them.

Well most 5.7l go from 1500 to 3500 so why not go with more power from the start. Just a thought and thanks for the advice on tranny. You always think it'd be a lethal combo and I could see there being a price difference with the allisons.

Yea I checked everything carefully the last time I removed the injectors. I just talked to Clearwater today, I explained what was happening an what I had done up to this point. I didn't even get to the end, as soon as I mentioned the thought of bad cups or head he stopped me and said get it off and I'll have UPS pick it up. Get it off and get it back to us asap. So thats good and bad news. I'm glad they are willing to work on it no questions. On the other hand I change the heads with the cab on so my back will hate me for the next week. I know it's not hard to take the cab off, but I can have the heads off in a couple hours with it on so it's all good.

The main thing now is do I go ahead and send both heads while I have the warranty? Or do I chance it and hope the other side is still good? My thought is they come in pairs, well really they're the same heads just turned around so I'm really thinking of sending both back since they are from the same batch. Good idea or no? (more work but guaranteed to rule out head problems further on if I know both heads are good from the start)

And we down here in Arkansas dont care about no laws. As long as you can spin dem tires and haul ass down gravel roads from the po po. HA HA But no really they don't check that shit here, especially with states like texas, cali, and new york with 1000X the cars.

I don't see the 6.7 having any power advantages from the start either, but that's me. The 6.7 will of course have the advantage of displacement and can spool a slightly larger charger easier, but you're really splitting hairs at that point. I see a lot of issues with emissions controls and a lot of headgakset issues on 6.7's. I just think the 5.9CR is just as potent and more trouble free. Isn't that really what you're after anyways?

That's good that they're willing to stand behind them. I know it's more work, but at this point to ensure everything is A-ok, I'd probably send both heads man...

Yea the 5.9 is proven and I understand that side of it. Yea I might as well. Hopefully I'll have the answer posted within a week or two. But will they really admit it was a bad head? Their fault? I don't know, all I can hope is they figure out what the hell is going on with that cylinder head, fix it, and I can have my answers. Thanks for all the input anyways, I definately won't leave ya hanging if it gets figured out. If I can help provide more insight to 6.0 owners and help save some money then it's all worth it in the end. And it doesn't hurt to know of another cause of 6.0 problems.

Thanks, definitely looking forward to seeing what fixes this one.

Is there any reason the glow plugs would have oil on them. When I pulled em out some had oil all over them, problem or normal?

They get oil in them from the rail when you pull them out, not from the cylinder. That's why they have those cheesy plastic plugs in valve cover, to prevent oil from coming out from the head. Normal. They get hot enough when you turn the key they'd certainly burn any oil off anyways, so that's really the only way they can get it. :c:

Ok just making sure. I guess I didn't notice it the other times I took them out.

What would have to happen in order to cause low compression? Aside from the walls of the cylinder wearing down and the rings not sealing properly. I'm more familiar with gas engines when it comes to certain things, but if the truck was running fine before the new heads then after it goes to shit. Suggesting there's a problem with the heads, but what if the heads were fine and the compression is low. It wasn't low before and now it is how could that be? what could happen to make the compression suddenly plummet. And if it is the compression then it would account for the problem with the fuel not burning off complete/ flooding or throwing the ratio off.

More than likely with bad rings there would be fuel inside the oil in the pan correct? If there are any other dead give aways of bad rings or low compressioin besides diesel in oil pan or pressuring up the oil, or there would be blowby. Any other thoughts or answers please post.

I'll still be sending my heads off to get checked out and given the thumbs up before maing the call but I'm just curious as to how easily you can lose compression, fine one week, shitty the next.

An injector not seated properly from a bad injector cup, or a loose injector... both could cause low compression.