Batmowheel exposed
 

Not the results a lot of people were looking for, but the math doesn't lie. This test was done on an S400 framed 80mm Borg Warner charger. Once with standard cast wheels, and again with double batmowheels, then they made a compressor map for it. According to the numbers it's apparently equal to about 80hp less than the cast wheel charger.

Batmo - .86Kg/s = 114lbs/min
Borg 80- .92Kg/s = 122lbs/min."

Attachment 36632



Discuss... :pca1:

One thing is for sure, I'm glad I controlled myself and didn't go and buy two of them when I first saw them!

It does look like it spools up quicker, but just doesn't move the same air at max. If your not maxing out the charger, it may be worth it. :humm:

Just goes to show you, you can't believe everything you read.....:s:

Does that include this thread? :ha:

I believe Bill @ PHP also did some dyno runs between a batmo and a regular wheel, and that may have been on a powermax and he even went as far as trying different tuning out on each one (his own tunes) to try and maximize potential... the batmo ran hotter and made less power if memory serves.

Ryan, I'm with you, they were quite tempting.

I'd really like to see a billet wheel added to this and layed over the other two.

Personally I always thought the batmo wheel was kinda a scam. looks like it may be alittle better on the bottom end but looses on the top. I just switched to a billet wheel in my silver 64 and other than faster spool up i dont think I gained alot. Other than bottom end

What else do you want? You're a tough guy to please! hahah. :tttt: Billet is lighter and stronger, so you gain some reliability (strength) and spool up (light weight). Makes sense, I'd just like to see it plotted on there against a cast.

The concept behind the batmowheel makes sense, but apparently real world function isn't up to par.

Lol. I know im picky:w2:

Well that's not a 6.0 map so let's compare apples to oranges. WTF??

Why does that matter? Its most likely going to be the same outcome

Why does that matter?

For one thing, this turbo appears to be a waste gate turbo. Ours isn't, what difference does that make? I don't know, but it should stand for something.

Second, in my quick Google search "Borg Warner S400sx 80mm turbo", it looked more popular with 4 and 6 cylinder racers than diesels. I don't know that much about turbos, but seems like this turbo is marketed towards the Supra guys.

Finally, I have read plenty from Batmowheel users and even spoke with Bullseye. The bottom line was that when used IN THE TURBO ON MY POWER STROKE, there would be about 100lb/ft of torque increase and about 10 hp.

Until we can see no kidding dyno numbers (that mapping may as well be cave drawings for all of the sense I can make of it:s:) from a user that has put a Batmowheel into a 6.0 Garret, this is just an interesting chart of how things work to me.

Sorry, Mike, but it looks apples to oranges to me, too.

Goes for everything.....:w2::c:

Karl, S480 is quite a popular turbo for a 6.0 to be used as an atmospheric turbo in a compound setup, it moves quite a bit of air. They've used a few of them as singles on 6.4's too, though I personally think it's too big as a single for a DD. It's a pretty common charger in the diesel performance world.

Bill from PHP did the same thing, I'll try and look it up, I believe it was on a powermax on his 6.0. He did a bunch of runs back to back and even wrote tunes specifically for each to try and get the max potential out of each, every run the batmowheel turbo was down on power and up on EGT's. I'll see if I can find that too.

Don't shoot the messenger, I'm just relaying info! MPD is the only one I've seen claim gains (the +100 ft/lbs Karl is talking about) but I bet they sell more batmowheels than anyone...



EDIT* I just read it and Bill from PHP tested it on a 38R in a 7.3 (very popular 7.3 turbo upgrade).

Yes MPD did back to back testing on a 6.0 too and here's the results:

Before and after Craig tested the batmowheel on my 03 turbo (it's worth noting this truck also was running 190cc injetors, so there was no way a stock turbo would ever clean these up, so maybe if it's severely over-fueled the batmo helps???)

stock numbers: 482.1hp @760.2ftlbs
Batmowheel: 493.5hp @867.8ftlbs

Back pressure& Boost
Stock: 42psi&36psi
Batmo: 42psi&38psi


What's interesting about that... I'm pretty sure Craig is no longer even using them.


Quoted from BIGRPOWR on CompD:

I did a similar test with a precision 75 and a 75 batmo ... The batmo lost by 20 at peak and by 100hp at 4000 rpm's , this was on a 6.4.



Really good thread going on CompD about it: http://www.competitiondiesel.com/for...d.php?t=142796
Some interesting posts in there from MarkBroviak including dyno graphs...




Another thing worth pointing out here... for those of us who aren't great at reading graphs (myself included) despite what you "think" you see on that graph, the batmowheel "comes up sooner on boost" is not true. Look at the ~77k rpm area... notice how the batmo line is to the left. This doesn't mean it's building boost quicker, it means at a given pressure driving the turbo, the cast wheel is moving more air. Notice the bottom of the chart, it's mass flow... meaning it's not flowing as much there either.

Interesting

Luke

Not to belabor this further, but Bullseye told me that the if you have a smokey tune, the Batmowheel could clean that up. Further, you could have a heavier fuel curve added. I forgot about reading those results that showed an additional 100lb/ft of torque with those injectors.

It seems to me that for the 6.0 with a stock turbo, the Batmowheel would work great. These other turbos that are getting bad results after a Batmowheel is installed isn't too hard to figure out, these are purpose built turbos that are having "random" parts installed.

Honestly, until I started reading feedback on MTW Stage 1 turbos, I was all hot and heavy about putting a Batmowheel into my stock turbo.

[QUOTE=Karls03;947705]Why does that matter?

The reason I said why does that matter is because MDub was not comparing to the 6.0 turbo. But was comparing overall data on a Bat Mo Wheel vs. cast. More than likely the outcome will be the same no matter what turbo this wheel is in. Im sure that several test will show that a bat mo wheel will flow more but you have to take in consideration all atomospheric conditions like temp, humidity, barometric and everthing. The only way to truly test this theory is is a controlled enviroment on a engine dyno with all the same conditions.

[quote=Scott@Alligator;948255]
It's been done on several trucks, back to back runs changing nothing but the wheel and it always seems to fall short. It doesn't move more air down low either, people are reading the graph wrong.

Now the test data I posted was done by Borg Warner, on very sophisticated equipment, it's about as high end of a test that will ever get done.

[quote=Mdub707;948667]You just posted data that swapping just the wheel can make 107ft/lbs of torque. Like I said before, while it may not work on an aftermarket turbo, it may work on a stocker.

My only issue with that...

dyno's are VERY easy to manipulate and so far the only dyno sheets that show a gain are the ones coming from the guys who sell the most batmowheels. Like I said, the guy who did that dyno to show an improvement... he doesn't even use batmo's on his truck anymore. What does that tell you?


Dyno's aside, I believe the BW compressor map more than anything. That doesn't lie.

I'm throwing my hat in the ring... Mdub, Can you find a head to head dyno test with a stock 6.0 running tunes only batmowheel vs. stock? The results you found are great for guys running purpose built trucks but, means nothing to the guy like me that wants to know if it would make a difference on a daily driver. Putting a batmowheel in a big purpose built turbo is like building a high compression gas race engine then showing dyno results showing how bad it performs on 87 octane...

I don't mean to sound like I'm doggin your post. I like the info and I'm sure it is useful for the guys running big power. As a guy just trying to get the most bang for my buck on a relatively stock 6.0 I would love to see a dyno result reflecting that.

Bills test (PHP) was done on a 38R 7.3, which is probably the single most popular turbo upgrade out there for 7.3's.

The one for the 6.0 that Craig posted I believe was on a stock turbo truck, but again... he's not using them in his own truck either.

I'm not sure I follow your line of thinking. What does it matter if the truck is purpose built or not. A turbo pushes a specific amount of air at a specific drive pressure. It can be altered a few ways, ie., chaning the impeller, inducer, exducer, housings etc. These are direct comparisons of the SAME turbo on a given truck with the only thing changing being the impeller wheel design. The size is the same. Everything I've read points to the batmowheel pushing less air.

Unfortunately there just isn't a TON of data out there on this. Until this BW chart popped up most of it was just speculation. The compressor map doesn't lie, it really shouldn't matter what turbo it's on...

My 2 cents.

Here's some interesting turn of events. BEP posted on their facebook page (Bullseye is who makes the batmo's)

This is an all out head to head Dyno Competition to see who has the better turbo. Turbo must be a Borg Warner Based Unit for this competition

Tune will remain unchanged, unless added fuel is necessary to raise the EGT’s to the level of the other turbo tested

Diesel Fuel Only, no nitrous, propane or water injection

Test will be MM for MM and only the CHRA and cover will be swapped

Single turbos only, no compound systems

No Clips, Bushings, or MAP enhancements typically found in a sled pulling charger

Must be a Minimum of 10 trucks and a Maximum of 20 trucks

$100 entry fee is non refundable

$500 payout if you can beat the BatMo Charger in average HP over the optimum RPM range of your dyno run. Torque will be used in the event of a tie

Entries must be submitted 7 days prior to the event date. Any truck entered two times or more for the purpose of running more than one size charger will pay the $100.00 entry fee per entry and must submit a tech sheet per entry for that same vehicle.

Tech sheets must be filled out and emailed to sales@bullseyepower.com No later than 11/10/2012.

Trucks will be driven only by the dyno operator.

Turbo swaps will be closely supervised by the dyno tech or techs and the dyno techs ruling on any infraction or interpretation on rules is final.

If your truck shows up at the dyno with anything other that what is specified on your registration form you will be disqualified

If for any reason your truck is disqualified no entry fees will be reimbursed since your dyno position was reserved.

All participants including BEP will have the option for 1 “mulligan” for example if you blow an intercooler boot, turbo or if any other quick repair can be made and another dyno pull can be made within 15 minutes which will be the maximum time frame allowed to make the repair, if the truck is still strapped to the dyno and if it must be removed then 45 minutes will be allotted or until the next truck has made its pull and the dyno is ready, whichever comes first.

No Hood Stacks allowed!

http://www.batmowheel.com/public/BatMoChallenge.doc

The Dyno Challenge will be held at Danville Performance on Saturday November 17th at 8 am

I wonder if they are going to make the turbos with their wheels go first and then make the normal wheels go after so there is heat quenching.

It's not going to be on the same trucks, it's a run what you brung and see who's truck makes the most power. Not exactly apples to apples, but a fun shootout none the less and they seem think they're going to make more power no matter what judging by the payout if you win.

Or am I reading this wrong? They're going to run both turbos on each truck? If that's the case, you bring up a good point.

That in my opinion is the only way to be fair is have the same trucks swap turbos. At the same time most trucks cant swap chargers that fast. If you have a built 3.0 duramax sled puller with a bat mo wheel and the next biggest truck is a common rail dodge with dual cp3's of course the 3.0 truck will win then. The is quite abit of fault in the rules if you ask me

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Or find 16 trucks with identical set ups and have 8 run a bat mo wheel turbo and 8 run a traditional cast wheel. Set them tuning the same and go from there

I think you're right, and I completely mis-read that. Sounds like you run your truck, as long as it's a BW turbo, then they will swap the cover and the wheel and re-run the truck...

Wow.. Thats great they are putting on a show. Lets see how the numbers come back.

Mdub, My thinking (mind you I'm not an engineer) is that there is some kind of relationship in the size, shape, weight, and design of the compressor wheel to the design, size, and shape of the turbo housing. I'm thinking that even though the batmowheel fits into any given turbo doesn't mean that it will work at 100% potential in that housing.

Thats the only way to be fair. And i think you are right as well. I never did think of swapping the housing and wheel

The whole idea behind the batmowheel is that it's "wavy" shape creates a longer line. A straight line is obviously shorter than a squiggly line that both have the same starting point and ending point. This in turn creates more surface area, and theoretically should be able to pull more air in. However given the same inducer size... you can only stuff so much air through a certain size hole. Even if the cover does make a difference, does the batmowheel still seem as appealing? The idea was just swap the $400 wheel in to get a difference. $400 was a good price point to get guys into buying it, instead of putting the money towards a newer turbo (think powermax, only $1200shipped or less most places). Would you still spend say $700 on a cover and a wheel, if you can get an entire upgrade turbo for $1200??? That's what I'm curious about more than anything. At what point does the cost outweigh the benefit, IF there even is a benefit...

This will be an interesting shoot out. My guess is they're going to be so close it's going to end up being a wash. Either way BPE gets a ton of publicity though don't' they?

I have a deal for them. I'll go down there and run my truck. Once as is, once again with their wheels and covers. If there is a significant difference, I'll buy the parts and head home. Think they will go for it? :ha:

There's no reason you couldn't do that, I bet they would go for that. It's $100 entry fee. Not that bad honestly to have some dyno time and try out a couple turbo setups...

Garrett has already tested a billet wheel against a cast wheel with the same dimensions and it had no effect on performance. Here is a link to the results...Garrett News & Events

Also, the test was done with a billet BW wheel. Here is a photo of the compressor wheels and covers used.
Attachment 26121

Haha Id email them Ryan

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Like I said the only thing I think I gained was spool up with the billet wheel

You're right, turbo manufacturers design compressor stages (wheel and cover) not compressor wheels. This is why BW tested the BatMo wheel and it's cover v. their wheel and their cover.

In many cases there are still some gains to be had by putting a bigger wheel in a different cover, but make no mistake the wheel's efficiency will suffer.

I'm not that hot on turbos, so I have to ask this: the dyno challenge is for Borg Warner based turbos, don't 6 Ohs use a Garret turbo? Again, I don't know turbos. If this is stock to stock with Batmowheel shoot out, that would settle this once and for all.

It says single turbo's only, I wonder why :humm: they're probably hoping thats what everybody does. I wonder if they have the dyno rigged

Singles only probably so they don't have to have 40 different wheels on hand for the competition and take all day swapping wheels around. Just eliminates a lot of factors too.

Karl, yeah stock 6.0's have garretts, so do a lot of stock trucks. Must be BW only.

Interesting conversation.

Maybe it’s me thinking as an engineer looking @ the compressor flowmap BorgWarner did a better job than Batmowheel but can you notice this on a dyno? Will be hard to say as some of us use a wastegate or not running a low AFR so there is plenty oxygen left and OK maybe a boost increase and lower EGT on the ones running a free floating turbocharger but will this give that large deference your looking for??? To many open end on engine specifications and engine tune I would say to come to a good conclusion bases on a dyno run.

Testing turbochargers on diesel engines we are looking @ a load of things.
HP/boost (pressure differential)/EGT/compressor discharge temp/exhaust back pressure/o2 left in exhaust gas (AFR)/ turbine speed if we have a hole to fit a speed sensor that is and fuel injected. In general BorgWarner will come up with better numbers as overall they run there turbo in amore efficient way based on the information they give.

All good points, and I agree fully with what you're saying, but the whole point of the argument is that the companies selling them were claiming increases by doing nothing more than just adding a batmowheel... regardless of compressor housing etc... I think that's more what it's about. However, Bullseye may be opening a can of worms here.

Well in general there is no wonder turbo, take that in mind and ad some 5% margin good or bad and you will cover all brands in the same range leaving pressure ratio out of the decision that is.

We even have a name for it. Turbo mafia making money playing with peoples minds and coming short on numbers and data in general so you can only find out with trail and error.
OK it’s not that easy with making conclusions as brands like HOLSET Garrett and BorgWarner can not give out a lot of data as most of it is linked to OEM so we have to excuse them for holding back.
As for most aftermarket turbo stuff I don’t go near them at all and so far they did come short on efficiency and you never know if the turbo can contains his parts if you blow it up big time. Some aftermarket turbo manufactures run containment test so better ask before you bay.


Improvement on flow and efficiency by changing compressor blade design and extended compressor wheel tip is marginal and takes a lot of R&D. A lot of effort is put in to prevent vibrations as the wheels getting smaller in general and having to move a lot more air going closer to all kinds of limits so there is a growing demand for titanium wheels for OEM applications as even billed will suffer from fatigue due to surge and vibrations.