"The" 2 Stroke Oil Thread
 

So To Run 2 Stroke or not reasons why and why not ?
:pc:

DM

I'll go first. I think 2 stroke is a great idea and did improve mileage to a small extent. HOWEVER, I did find a downside to it. I started having fuel leaks all over the place. Both in my replacement high pressure fittings and the only stock fitting I had left on the truck. It losend all of em up better then any penetrating oil could have. Just something to watch out for if you use it.

use it in the 24v and the 12v don't know if mileage went up with the 12v cuz I've run 2-stroke from day one with it...get 19-20mpg real easy. The 24 valve went up as well...quieted it down some. works for me...

i run it in my 01. i run the walmart supertech stuff.i noticed no gain in MPG but i did notice the engine does not knock and ping like a gasser on cheap gas and i did gain some power back

I run it every tank and noticed mpg increse

noticed a little mileage gain, nothin great, but it was there. truck is a lot quieter and i have the piece of mind knowing that my vp44 is getting lubricated!! also lubricating my holley at the same time. no reason not to run it, my .02

I've been running it for the past 1 1/2 years, in my 02, and now my 06. Here is what I've noticed. Smoother idle, less clatter/rattle (02) and improved fuel mileage! My main and only reason for running it is because of this new ULSD fuel and the lack of sulfur. I want the lubriticity it ads back into the fuel. Plus I get a little added smoke! :da:

Never have run it, never really thought about running it. my problem is I never fill my tank up, unless I am towing my jeep a long distance. I usually put in about 40 bucks per stop, because my wallet can't take $100 at a time to fill up.
Scott

Oh dang... The topic I love to argue on...:hd:

Well I got to admit I'm still using 2 cycle oil and I've seen awesome improvements. Quietier engine less knocking, improvement in fuel mileage, and I know every bit of my fuel system is lubricated.

Now as far quantity of oil to use. It simple to figure out. I've been using 1 oz for every 1 gallon of fuel. Or if you fill up from near empty then dump in a full quart (32 ounces).

As for my past discussions of this... I've had made of page full of information on the 2 cycle oil and other products. Never the less I did
finally piss off a company. Believe it or not I pissed off PowerService. So I hit a nerve with that one and ended up pulling my web page.

But my 2 cycle oil research still continues. I will be soon building a new personal web page with all new updated information. :c:

you got under ps's skin? What did they say?:pc:

that seems like an awful lot of 2 cycle to be dumping in every tank?

I guess ur the expert though

Has anyone run it in a Powerstroke? I would be curious to see. Most of the posts seem top be from the Cummins guys.

I started running 2 stroke oil in my 92' yesterday. Seems to be doing the job. I think the right thinking is there in running 2 stroke. Gonna try it in my 04.5' when i fill it up next.
ez

1oz for ever gal that’s nuts with what 2SO cost it would be cheaper to replace the fuel system when it goes bad. I don't use it wasn't made for diesels and it has some affects not always good on the balance rates on Dmaxs.

1 quart to every tank full, the walmart stuff costs me about 8 bucks a gallon, so that adds about $2.00 to each fill up. At an average of 16 miles per gallon(low average on my 02) on my 35 gallon tank I can go about 560 miles, that figures out to about .0035 cents per mile added cost or about .057 cents per gallon on a total fill up. Cheap insurance for the old VP,:up: Hell I'd pay double that just to quiet the injectors down. Just my .02, :tttt:Been running it since 04.:w2:

I stopped runing it for the winter. for what reason I have no idea. but I just started adding it again and man what a difference. power, slight MPG increase but the noise reduction is amazing.

I had my buddy try it in his D-max and he has been adding it ever since.

Well Since DB.com has a 2 cycle oil thread I better get to work here...:w2:

Here we go... First off let me post my web site links...
http://www.frontiernet.net/~mopar197..._cycle_oil.htm

Second off here is my Dyno results running 105:1 Ratio of 2 cycle oil and Diesel fuel.

Ok Gang!

I got more to report about conserning 2 cycle oil and HP/TQ numbers... Yes I got my truck on to the rollers and got to dyno it out... You all are going to be shocked with my numbers.

First off let me lay down some baseline information. You all have seen my web page on my BOMBs and MODs I've done. Ok... We all know that the 2002 Cummins SO is rated for 235 HP 460TQ at the flywheel.


Well this proves there is very little drag between the flywheel to the rear end. Also this proves there was very little change in HP/TQ number conserning 2 cycle oil. I'm using conventional Dino lubes in everything except the transmission which requires the Castrol SynTorque. But still even this number is high for HP/TQ at the rear wheels... 2 Cycle oil maybe???

Great info, and great to see you around....Your information and insight has been missed!

Well I'm still here just been super busy with may jobs... But I had to post up the inofrmation about my awesome number of using 2 cycle oil and just a Edge Comp... It felt good now to be running in the pack now! :up:

But I'll always continue to work on the 2 cycle oil threads and keep updating my web site so keep checking back on my web site... :bow2:

wish i had a scanner so i cld post my sheets.

i run an oz per gallon of the 2stroke. in one tank i added brand 'a 'cetane boost mixed to recomended max dose. sposed to add 7 cetane points. lost 9 rwhp and 17 rwtq using the tank with the cetane boost. change tanks with the flip of a switch. interesting find. snake oil. did bttr with the 2 stroke with no cetane boost and the 2 stroke is waaaaaaaay cheaper and lubricates too.

WEB PAGE UPDATED!
 

Well Gang I've updated my web page concerning 2 cycle oil and fuel additive and what they use to make them...

http://www.frontiernet.net/~mopar197..._cycle_oil.htm

I will confirm this... I was shocked myself to see a very popular brand fail so badly on the rollers. I watch Muddy turn out lower numbers that usual... Then to switch to the 2 cycle oil fuel and gain it back... (total Shock!)

I love it when my reasearch works! :c:

I do have to say it is very interesting to read your webpage and the info you have there. A lot of this kind of reminds me how some livestock feed companies would add chicken feathers to the feed years ago to increase the protien levels in the feed. But didnt tell everyone it wasnt digestable protien so in the end you didnt get what you thought you were buying.

I also just relized something else too...

ULSD has a flash point of about 150*F so you engine coolant temp is about 190*F-200*F. Then all a certane booster is a flash point reducer. So why in the hell would anyone need to reduce the flash point of diesel fuel that is well below the temp of the coolant??? This is going to advance the timing and increase the burn rate. Hence the typical diesel knock! But if you increase you flash point a bit say closer to 190*F it tend to ignite later, burn slower and longer. Hence why using 2 cycle oil quiets the engine down. But I'm not going to mention the fact that your fuel system will completely lubed too...

Now I can see reducing the flash point of you fuel in the winter time for extreme cold conditions. (Minus anything) but even then I've never had a problem with gelling or starting with a good snowmobile 2 cycle oil.

This is why Muddy lost the HP/TQ using the popular brand name certane booster. But when he switch back over to the 2 cycle oil only fuel it came back...:w2:

Ok... I've got more to add to this thread... Here is some of the common chemicals in diesel fuel additives...

Naphtha - Flashpoint (-86°F to 109°F) Depending on grade. (CAS No.: 8032-32-4, 8030-30-6, 8002-05-9; aka petroleum ether, white spirit (but in the UK white spirit is something different entirely), Ligroin; VM&P Naphtha; Varnish Makers and Painter's Naphtha [1]; Benzin; Petroleum Naphtha, Naphtha ASTM, Petroleum Spirits, shellite, ronsonol; not to be confused with Naphthalene) is a group of various liquid hydrocarbon intermediate refined products of varying boiling point ranges from 20 to 75 ºC (68 to 167 ºF), which may be derived from oil or from coal tar, and perhaps other primary sources.
Naphtha is used primarily as feedstocks for producing a high octane gasoline component via the catalytic reforming process. Naphtha is also used in the petrochemical industry for producing olefins in steam crackers and in the chemical industry for solvent (cleaning) applications.
Benzene - Flashpoint (12°F) Depending on grade. HEALTH HAZARD!
Benzene is an organic chemical compound with the formula C6H6. It is sometimes abbreviated Ph-H. Benzene is a colorless and flammable liquid with a sweet smell and a relatively high melting point. It is carcinogenic and its use as additive in gasoline is now limited, but it is an important industrial solvent and precursor in the production of drugs, plastics, synthetic rubber, and dyes. Benzene is a natural constituent of crude oil, but it is usually synthesized from other compounds present in petroleum. Benzene is an aromatic hydrocarbon and the second [n]-annulene ([6]-annulene), a cyclic hydrocarbon with a continuous alternation of single and double bonds.
Xylene - Flashpoint (62°F to 75°F) Depending on grade. Xylene is a colorless, sweet-smelling liquid that is very flammable. It occurs naturally in petroleum and coal tar and is formed during forest fires. The chemical properties differ slightly from isomer to isomer. The melting point is between −47.87 °C (m-xylene) and 13.26 °C (p-xylene). The boiling point is for each isomer at around 140 °C. The density is at around 0.87 kg/L and thus is less dense than water. Xylene in air can be smelled at 0.08 to 3.7 parts of xylene per million parts of air (ppm) and can begin to be tasted in water at 0.53 to 1.8 ppm.
Chemical industries produce xylene from petroleum. It is one of the top 30 chemicals produced in the United States in terms of volume. Xylene is used as a solvent and in the printing, rubber, and leather industries. p-Xylene is used as a feedstock in the production of terephthalic acid, which is a monomer used in the production of polymers. It is also used as a cleaning agent for steel and for silicon wafers and chips, a pesticide [1], a thinner for paint, and in paints and varnishes. It may be substituted for toluene to thin laquers where slower drying is desired. It is found in small amounts in airplane fuel and gasoline.
Naphthalene - Flashpoint (174°F to 188°F) Depending on grade. HEALTH HAZARD!
Naphthalene (not to be confused with naphtha) (also known as naphthalin, naphthaline, moth ball, tar camphor, white tar, or albocarbon), is a crystalline, aromatic, white, solid hydrocarbon, best known as the primary ingredient of mothballs. Naphthalene is volatile, forming a flammable vapor. Its molecules consist of two fused benzene rings. It is manufactured from coal tar, and converted to phthalic anhydride for the manufacture of plastics, dyes and solvents. It is also used as an antiseptic and insecticide, especially in mothballs. p-Dichlorobenzene is now often used instead of naphthalene as a mothball substitute. Naphthalene easily sublimates at room temperature.
Mineral Spirits - Flashpoint (69°F to 131°F) Depending on grade.
Mineral Spirits is a petroleum distilate commonly used as a paint thinner and mild solvent. In Europe, it is referred to as petroleum spirit or white spirit. In industry, mineral spirits is used for cleaning and degreasing machine tools and parts.
Also known as...
White Spirits is used as an extraction solvent, as a cleaning solvent, as a degreasing solvent and as a solvent in aerosols, paints, wood preservatives, lacquers, varnishes, and asphalt products. In western Europe about 60% of the total white spirit consumption is used in paints, lacquers and varnishes. White spirit is the most widely used solvent in the paint industry. In households, white spirit is commonly used to clean paint brushes after decorating. Its paint thinning properties enable brushes to be properly cleaned (by preventing the paint from hardening and ruining the bristles) and therefore enabling them to be re-used.

Now take a look at Schaeffer's Diesel Fuel Treatment...
http://www.schaefferoil.com/msdspdf/137.pdf

Refer to chemical list above... Now ask the question where is the lubricants??? :se: <- Your VP44 pump!

I'm confused, what does the flashpoint have to do with your coolant temp?
Under the pressure these diesels push, the combustion temps are around 750* f simply from the pressure. lowering the flashpoint makes it burn faster adding a little power and response i believe.
Am I wrong here?

Flash point has a lot to do with it. It changes burn rate and timing of the igntion. Basically when you increase you certane you decraes the delay of ignition of the fuel. But remember the diesel engine was design around this delay. So if you remove it you start fire advanced timing and burning more like gasoline with a sudden pop!

As for the start of the cycle when air is drwn in it will be a bit warmer that outside from the turbo and intercooler. But bascially the air entire that cylinder will warm up to engine temps at least before compression. 190-200*F and go up from there during compression stroke. Once fired it will be well in the 750*F (and possibly highier)... But cools quickly bcause of coolant temps, oil coolers spray the bottom of the pistons, etc. You load and how much throttle plays a big roll in this.

So if you increase the flash point of the fuel it seem to burn slower and longer. As you can see with my previous post with the Dyno. I did 381/826 and stock I did 228/462.

A buddy of mine used a popular fuel additive (expensive one) and lost 9/17 on the dyno and then gained it back plus a bit with only 2 cycle oil. Certane additives are not quite always a good thing. As proved here... The only time you need high certane levels is in the winter time to help aid in starting of the truck.

What is Certane Rating???
A measure of the starting and warm-up characteristics of a fuel. In cold weather or in service with prolonged low loads, a higher cetane number is desirable. Legislation dictates the Cetane index should be 40 or above.

I understand what flashpoint is but you were comparing it to coolant temps of 190 rather than combustion chamber temp of 750*

Why do you need to reduce you flash point of your fuel for summer time useage? (Increase certane index). There is no reason for it. during the winter time when the block is ice cold (32*F) and lower yeah you'll need a good bump in certane to make it burn from a cold start. But once the block warms up the air warms up you don't require a certane booster any longer. The air temp will always be at least a minimum temp of the coolant in the block when entering the cylinder. Yes I know compression will add more temp also but... During the summer time I finding that there is no need for very low flash point fuels at all...

USLD has a flash point of 150*F... Trust me it doesn't take mush to ignite that...
http://www.cenexenergy.com/Downloads/2ULSDSpec_2006.pdf

A Cetane rating of at least 40 is recommended at temperatures above 32 degrees (Highier flash points for highier temps)
A Cetane rating of at least 45 is recommended at temperatures below 32 degrees (Lower flash points for lower temps)
The cetane number measures the ignition quality of a diesel fuel.

It is measured in special ASTM variable compression ratio test engine that is closely controlled with regard to temperatures ( coolant 100C, intake air 65.6C ), injection pressure ( 1500psi ), injection timing 13 degrees BTDC, and speed (900rpm ). The compression ratio is adjusted until combustion occurs at TDC ( the ignition delay is 13 degrees ). The test is then repeated with reference fuels with five cetane numbers difference, until two of them have compression ratios that bracket the sample. The cetane number is then determined by interpolation.

Typically engines are designed to use fuels with Cetane Numbers of 40-55, because below 38 a more rapid increase in ignition delay. The significance of the cetane number increases with the speed of the engine, and large, low speed diesel engines often only specify viscosity, combustion and contaminant levels, as Cetane Number requirement of the engine is met by most distillate and residual fuels that have the appropriate properties. High speed diesel engines ( as in cars and trucks ) virtually all are designed to accept fuels around 50 Cetane Numbers, with higher numbers being a waste.

However, Cetane Number is only one important property of diesel fuels, with three of the others being also very important. Firstly, the viscosity is important because many injection systems rely on the lubricity of the fuel for lubrication. Secondly, the cold weather properties are important, remember that normal alkanes are desirable, but the desirable diesel fraction alkanes have melting points above 0C temperature, so special flow-enhancing additives and changes to the hydrocarbon profiles occur seasonally. That's why it's never a good idea to store diesel from summer for winter use. Thirdly, diesel in many countries has a legal minimum flash point ( the minimum temperature it must attain to produce sufficient vapours to ignite when a flame is applied. In all cases it's usually well above ambient ( 60C+, kerosene is 37C+, whereas gasoline is typically below -30C ), and anybody mixing a lower flash point fraction with diesel will usually void all insurance and warranties on the vehicle. The recent increase in blending fuels has resulted in significantly more frequent analyses of fuel tank contents from diesel vehicle fires.

Ok one question, why is it that Bosch wants our Centane at 50 and up and over in the EU I've read its about 55 average and 50 is the lowest they have so why is the low 40 Centane we have here OK? I would think Bosch knows whay our fule systems should have and big oil should make whay is required for it to run.

Also I had a tank of #2 that was left over winterised fuel (and no it was not mixed with 1 fuel) that had 45 Centane and my truck ran the best it ever did on ULSD with no additives in it added by me compared to the normal 40 Centane we have any other time.

06Dodge, youre forgetting about the far reaching influence of the US Government and the EPA....to my knowledge they dictate everything that is happening with the fuel supply.

Exactly. The oil companies had nothing to do with it and in fact DIDNT want the change.

Update...

I've updated my web site and clean up the information...

http://www.frontiernet.net/~mopar197..._cycle_oil.htm <- 2 Cycle oil page

http://www.frontiernet.net/~mopar197.../chemicals.htm <- Chemical definitions

http://www.frontiernet.net/~mopar197...orum.links.htm <- Links to other forums discussing 2 cycle oil

http://www.frontiernet.net/~mopar197...DS%20Links.htm <- MSDS sheets for most products including diesel fuel and 2 cycle oils...

There you go gang!

I also found out that NO sulfur diesel is in the works... Yes here is the spec sheet for it...

http://www.cpchem.com/enu/msds_unsec...NGLISH_A_N.pdf

Well, if you really could pull a test sample of ULSD, right now, chances are good they're REALLY CLOSE to almost NO sulfur already. Refiners must meet the 15ppm maximum level for ULSD, but I have found, while testing a new fuel treatment, that certain tank farms are already holding fuel that is at the 1ppm sulfur level, yes, that's not a misprint, 1 PART PER MILLION. So, they're pretty much there in terms of sulfur levels. One part per million is so little a concentration that it's really insignificant when you look at the entire mixture as a whole. How much is 1 ppm in layman's terms?
1 ppm = roughly 1/10th of a CC (cubic centimeter) in your ENTIRE fuel tank
OR
1/50th of a Teaspoon
OR
3 drops in your entire 35 gallon tank!!!
Pretty small amount. So, it's not much if anything at all. Basically, we're running without sulfur as it is already so changing to NO SULFUR is really just a classification but it wouldn't show up as much of a difference at all in how our trucks function already.
:pc:

Yes... It's true... They are making NO SULFUR FUEL already... (Link is in my last post).

First, I want to concentrate on the loss of the sulfur and why this is important to you. Sulfur is an Extreme Pressure (EP) lubricant. It is regularly added to lubricating oils and greases to increase the lubricity and to raise the amount of pressure that the lubricant can handle before the lubricating molecular barrier begins to break down. Sulfur has always been a vitally important factor in providing lubrication to diesel engine fuel pumps, fuel injectors, and to a lesser degree engine valves.
The reduction now being made takes on-highway diesel from less than 500 ppm to less than 15 ppm, which for all practical purposes eliminates sulfur as a lubricant in the fuel.
There are several methods of determining lubricity in fuels. The most common are: Ball on Cylinder Lubricity Evaluator (BOCLE), Scuffing Load on Ball Lubricity Evaluator (SLBOCLE), and High Frequency Reciprocating Rig (HFRR). The HFRR has emerged as the world standard and has been adopted by the ASTM and all of the engine manufacturers as the de-facto standard for measuring lubricity of fuels. HFRR ratings are counter-intuitive with the lower number showing better lubricity than a higher number.
On an HFRR test the number given is a measurement of the scar diameter (microns) produced during the test. The larger the scar diameter, the lower the lubricity, the smaller the scar the better the lubricity...

So as they reduce the sulfur they got to make up the lubricant some how. Why else did they start testing all fuel so it meets a certain level of lubricity??? :duh3:

Are you willing to buy my next VP44 injection pump???

Im glad you said that. Wannadiesel at DTR said that sulfur was NOT a lubricant of any kind, that in the process of removing sulfur from diesel they lose the lubricity. I agree with you, the books i have read say the sulfur IS a extreme pressure lube, just like mopar said! Good job mopar1973man!
ez

I've been researching this right along for a year now! Everytime someone proves something to me I WILL go research it and be sure they are right. But lot of times I'm still on the ball...:c: Thanks for the comment!

Sulfur is added to keep a lubricant from breaking down under extreme pressures... What do you call the IP pumps then? Your pumping the diesel fuel to pressures well above 4,000 PSI. I call that extreme pressure don't you???

More proof of it working properly...Remember I started using 2 cycle oil at approximately 85K miles.

Here is my most up to date MPG graph as of today.
http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r.../fuelgraph.jpg

Here is my close up zoom of my MPG from 85K miles on up to current.
http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r...an/zoomMPG.jpg

Then here is the best one of all. My cost per mile graph. Remember I started using 2 cycle oil at 85K miles...
http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r...ostpermile.jpg

As you can see it saving me money. So if you say my high average is $0.18 it currently $0.14 so thats a $0.04 cents saving per mile. So 105K-85K=20K roughly. So 20Kx$0.04= $800 dollars (roughly) saving since the start of my 2 cycle oil... And I've only speent about $60 bucks on 2 cycle oil. I would say thats a good return and savings. Even with the price of fuel going up I'm still cutting my cost per mile!

MoparMan

Would you make a thread back up that sulfur is an lubricant. A lot of things I have read agree but they don't go into details.

Thanks

Sulfur is a part of the lubricity of the fuel. Ok! Ask yourself why did they come up with the HFRR standard for testing the lubricity of the fuel after the extreme reduction of sulfur? True Sulfur alone is not a lubricant but its added to many types of lubes and grease to enhance it lubricating qualities.

So basically the more you remove sulfur from the fuel the less ability the fuel has to deal with extreme pressures (like inside the IP pump) It tends to break down the remaining lubricant that is left in the fuel with the extreme heat and pressures that a IP pump can put on the fuel. Also remember all the IP pump parts are lubricated by the fuel and can be spinning up 3K RPMs...