beating duramax's in workstock
 

First of im gunna start by saying im getting real tired of getting 5th in workstock because of efi live'd cheeta turbo'd duramaxes, they arnt even 2.5 legal. I was wondering what i could do if i were to build another truck (besides building a duramax) to beat these trucks. i dont have a very big budget like 15k and thats including the cost of the truck and the parts to make it hold the power. any comments, suggestions or info is appreciated :c:

this is one of my competitors before he had 2 cp3's

building a competitive pull truck on the cheap is not an easy thing to do...

your best friends are going to be high RPM, a lower gear, and high traction tires with a turbo you can stay on top of...

they grey dodge in your video f-ed up... he took too long of a gear and couldn't stay on top of the turbo because he lugged it...

you gotta stick to one gear because shifting is not an option, nor is lugging it...boosted launch in 5rd gear on a NV5600, or 4th gear on a NV4500 4x4 in low range and rev it out...

5k gsk on a 13mm p7100 with larger 6 hole injectors and 110# valve springs with upgraded pushrods, retainers and keepers... then get a S400 turbo well matched for the injector size and tune the pump for it...you will need to run 4-5krpm to hold speed and stay up on the turbo which is why the valve trains needs to be a primary focus in these types of events...it's gotta be upgraded to handle those kinds of RPMs... you're not gonna do that on stock springs and retainers....you can hit 4500rpm on stock retainers and keepers, but beyond that they need to be upgraded...

good luck building that + the cost of the truck for under 15k :pca1:

My thinking for it was valvespirngs, pushrods, billet bridges, a cam (dont know which one) and port and polish it myself. my three main expenses will probly be the turbo, pump and clutch. As far as the turbo goes i saw in diesel power that fleece makes a 63mm holset but i dont know if its worth the 1,800 price tag,I usually just buy a pump someone else has built so what can i do to a stock 215 pump i got one for $350 at u-pull, dont know if thatl be enough fuel, and im torn between a southbend 3850 or a hmr pulling clutch, and for a truck i know where one is for 3200 with a bad 47re (snaped imput shaft):humm: and the grey dodge is ziegler performance's truck its got a 62mm "hx35"

a 215 pump can be turned up quite a bit.

for vavlesprings and pushrods you can check out the thread I made about that...

just make sure the cam you run doesn't lift too might or those springs might not work as they may hit coil bind before the cam is done lifting. They are fine for stock to mild cams though...

as for the pushrods in the thread I posted, they will work either way! much better deal than hamiltons HD rods and they are custom made, not just sitting on a shelf. :tu:

crower makes both chromoly and titanium retainers if you pan on turning over 4500rpm. either should hold up to that. just make sure to get keepers than can hold up as well.

1800 for a 63 is highway robbery.

if you are going for 2.5 class, just go with an S400 like a 466. with a p7100 and some decent injectors + cranking high RPM you should be able to keep it spooled.

idk about the $1800 cost but i do like the fact that a fleece holset is stock apearing so i can pull stock and 2.5, how bad would a non vgt he351 with a billet wheel? i know s4's are nice but they limit your class, my current truck has a s466 on it and id have to say 2.6 is a money class that is if you dont have the money you get 8th behind the $120k trucks so that is my thought around building a workstock truck that i can bump up into 2.5 and try to make some extra $$$

im pretty sure fleeces cheetah 63 is a he351 bearaing housing with a hx40 shaft and a 63mm wheel. the cover, turbine housing and bearing housing pocket get worked over to accept the parts. i believe it turns out to be a 63/65/9
65 being hx40
9 being he351cw
and the compressor is a ? as to the app it came from.
machine work and piecing them together is why they cost so much. only the shell is O.E.

can you run an hx40 in work stock? it has a much larger turbine housing. ide go CNCing on that befor a 351. you can cram bigger parts in the larger frame. i would assume. use some s300 parts. get a 71 or 74mm turbine and a billet 63 compressor. machine bearing bores and do something with thrust. shaft will have to be very closley measured probably machined to work in the housing but in the end you would have a MUCH higher flowing turbo that looks stock.

why not make a semi-hybrid turbo...

do a 60mm HX40 wheel on the compressor side, then do an hx40 turbine with a hx35 turbine housing or find a 12cm^2 housing that will fit on an hx turbo...essentially giving you a 60/65/12 instead of a 60/65/16 should spool much faster and hold stock appearance :thumbsup:

or just run the VGT... it is a "STOCK" turbo for dodge...so assuming you are allowed to use turbo's from different generations of the same make on your truck, you could run one of those?

well h1c's are cheap cause ther kinda out dated but they have similarities with a hx40 cause you can get a GDS 60mm upgrade and i think thats just a hx40 housing, wheel and center section plate. Then i can get a wide range of exhaust housings and a hx40 batmowheel will fit in it thats like a $900 60mm batmo :humm:

I would use a vgt but fleece says there vgt controller doesnt work with manual trucks, idk why

And GDS has a 60mm kit for the 35 but there arnt as many exhasust housing options and it would be a little more $$$ and it needs to be machined to exept the new wheel

you can get a standalone fully mechanical controller for the VGT. one of the guys in my chapter on cumminsforum has a 5spd 12v truck with a HE351VE on it and a mechanical controller for the vanes. looks like it has a wastegate actuator on it, but it actually moves the vanes rather than a gate puck.

if you want to compete you have to do machine work. a 63mm wheel is the limit, so thats on the list. she has to flow so a 12cm housing is gone. turbine should be as big as you can slam in a housing.

I havent seen any good threads yet cause all im findin is a bunch of long non informational threads with no pictures or nig rigged springs and levers :argh:

can i just weld the vanes to a certain position i dont really need it to spool fast cause its on a pulling truck?

HTT has a turbo that they dont list a compressor size but if you look for stage III upgrade it says 2.5 for $1500 for the whole setup without accuator and bigger exhaust housing

hers the best one i could find of mechanical,not best quality
next best but doesnt show how its made

why would you want to even try to compete with a 351vgt charger? ide rather have the factor hx. it will last longer.

lol lol lol lol so many blown up hx's i still have exhaust wheels rolling around in the exhaust and a shiny new intercooler..... thats my reasoning

why would you bother welding the vanes in a certain spot...if you're just going to do that, just get a HE351cw and increase the wastegate puck clearance and maybe enlarge the gate a bit...

has the same compressor side as the VGT...just has a gate instead of vanes..

If your pulling you would only need to move the actuator one way to begin with.When your at the line you'd have it all the way open(not restricted) and when you end you might have to close it up so you don't lose it the way the big turbo's do when they lose engine RPM's.If you spin out you wouldn't have to worry about it at all.It has to do w/exhaust output pressure.More fuel more air more boost.But if you loose one you loose them all.That what you see when here at the pulls.Loss of exhaust pressure to turn/spin the turbine wheel and thats whats all the fuss is about.And that is what the VGT is trying to do maintain air flow and adjust compensate for exhaust flow.You expect this much so the VGT moves to keep at that much.What I don't know is the air flow number's for the 3,4,5 and 6 turbo's all the way closed and all the way open sort of a minimum/maximum air/exhaust flow.I'm sure someone has gooten that by now

If I were to use the mechanical control would it throw the vanes open at full spool and then tighten them up as the rpm falls at the end of the run? I dont really know if it works like that or the drive pressure tightens them up as it spool :argh:

It is controlled on a Cummins VGT engine by the controller and ECM.W/the electronics outta the picture and a manual controller connected you would be controlling the open and closing of the turbo.The way this turbo is designed it uses fingers similar to the heater motor in your truck.These fingers slide thru a plate one way is closed and the other way is open.It doesn't care what the drive pressure is other than shaft RPM's.The higher the RPM's the Higher the risk of breakage.These turbo's are good in the 80-100,
000 RPM range turning them more than that is risky.I can say if your juiced up that the
HV351 will be to small and you should be trying to find a HV451 at least.And that will mean making an adapter from your manifold to the mounting flange of the turbo because the turbo bolt pattern is bigger than your manifold.The reason for the VG is to controll the amount of air going into the engine.W/the turbo closed the air flow is restricted/limited,w/the turbo open air flow is at it's highest.Which the difference between a non VGT turbo which relies on exhaust flow to make more intake air pressure.The VGT is used to controll the amount of air going into the engine.On a pulling application your aready able to use all of the air flow at the start and as long as the engine RPM's don't fall you would be able to leave the turbo at full air or open.If the rpm's fall then you would have to close the turbo to keep the air flow at it's max,but that will be a play by ear thing because as you close the turbo you also reduce the air that it gives the engine.You can't think of boost pressure but of how much air is flowing to the engine.More fuel = more air flow into the engine.Heavy black smoke = not enough air flow into the engine and wasted fuel and lost power.You don't want black smoke going down the track no matter what your seeing everybody else doing.I use to tune a stock truck w/a 400 sb chevy so I know alittle about truck pulling.The guys that I used to pull against aren't any smarter the when I pulling against them.Also if your not running head studs and have the head o-ringed you will blow the head gasket w/this much turbo.It takes a combination not one thing or another.Hope this helps