wont start with out ether
 

my 05 3500 wont start without ether. about 3 weeks ago it got down in the teens and it wouldnt start so i gave it a shot of fluid and it started right up. week goes by with no problems and then a week ago it would start as long as it was plugged in with the temp only getting down to 30's and then yesterday it was 50 and plugged in and wouldnt start without ether but would start right up after it had been ran for a bit and today i can shut it down after driving for 5 hours and try to start it and it wont. cranks over like mad wont wont fire with out some starting fluid, doesnt smoke when it does start and runs fine when it is running. I just towed my 5th wheel 500 miles with it and had no problems except starting. turning the key 3 times shows no codes. Fuel filter has been changed and lift pump is working, i drained the fuel bowl and left the valve open, turned key on and fuel started flowing again. anybody have a idea whats wrong with this turd?

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has 70k miles BTW

Ether bad, the truck will become hooked on it.

I don;t know to much about the common rails but I think this is somethin to do with the pop pressures on the injectors.

BE CAREFUL WITH THAT EITHER. Good way to lose your truck and your life on these trucks. That either hits the grid heater while it's in heat mode and you won't have to worry about starting issues anymore. The trucks don;t have glow plugs like the others, either is like a ticking bomb in these things.

Being as how you haven't had an accident yet I think I would check the heater grid for starters to see if it's working.

A buddy of mine has a shop and just put a motor in a cr truck that was "hooked" on either. It ended up being a problem with the injectors but the guy kept starting it with either and jacked up a piston or something like that and scored a cyl if I remember right. But the original problem was with the injectors. So yea be real careful with the either:scare2:

best way to becareful with it is to just keep it away from a diesel

yeah no shit ether is bad. anybody have any useful info? i had to get it started to drive 500 miles to go to work for 2 weeks. now that im here it can sit until i figure out whats wrong with it. several auto responses from all sites are INJECTORS. I have the money to throw 3k at 6 injectors but if that's not the problem im not going to be real happy. the other auto response from retards is GRID HEATER. the grid heater is not needed when shutting down a fully HOT motor and try to restart it 5 seconds later and it wont start.

injectors will be the first place to start most likely this issue there aint nothing cheep about owning a diesel

injectors is what we changed on my buddies truck it would lose its fuel prime when he shut off his truck and we found a leaky injector

We can only respond to the info that you give us and you haven't exactly given us much info to go on but sorry to have wasted your time with all our worthless posts. I've been stuck out a town with a dead truck myself and it sucks, I wish ya luck with it.:c:

If you are getting the same response from all sites that seems like a good place to start.:humm:

Best thing to do would be to start with a compression test. This will tell if your engine is already 'hooked' on ether and will need to be over hauled or replaced. While the injectors are out have them tested. If they are bad you can replace them instead of putting the problem ones back in.
Ether is 'diesel engine overhaul in a can' for sure. It tears up a lot of engines every year! It is really best to never use it. Only somewhat safe way is to shoot a very small amount into a rag and then hold that rag close to the intake while it is cranked. Be sure not to let it 'grab' that rag out of your hand!!

I've been using ether to start my 1st Gen for two years when it goes below freezing in the garage because it has no grid heaters. Saves on cranking, nothing wrong with it. The danger with using ether in a diesel like the Cummins is casued by the grid heaters igniting it in the intake. That would be a bad thing. I don't know what y'all mean by "hooked on ether" but it sounds to me like somebody is hooked on something else.

OBTW, commonrail injectors are electronically fired, not "popped."

Hooked on ether Usually happens to worn out diesels to much blow by the rings equals low compression the high expansion of the ether makes the motor rotate real fast giving the pistons just enough to run once running there is enough heat to keep it going! Just cranking without a heat source on a worn engine makes it almost impossible to start!
The ether is a quick fix that once started makes it hard to stop but the damage is permanent! Time for a rebuild. On the newer engines it's usually the injectors.

ether can be bad on your diesel engine especially in the wrong hands you dont pull the trigger and hold it like your trying to kill a swarm of yellow jackets and yes Nadirpoint they can and will get hooked on ether whether you think so or not ive seen them in the middle of the summer not start with out a snort of ether and yes i just replaced a 3408 cat engine in a scraper this last summer because of to much use of the ether can and any thing with a grid heater or glowplugs can be dangerous if ether is in the picture dont get me wrong i have used it and will continue to use it but its a have to thing and small quantities like 1sec spray off 5secs usually just a tad will do ya:humm:

Ok ya caught me, I meant to say HPOP and old habit's took over and I forgot the "H".

Pretty much, must some GOOOOOD stuff to. :jump:

For the OP, you are going to need to check some things to find the problem. Specifically and injector return flow test will tell you if the injectors are bypassing too much fuel. Knowing what your rail pressure is on cranking is going to help also. It could be FCA, CP-3, rail pressure sensor, rail relief valve, or lift pump problems.

Gauges, gauges, gauges are your FRIEND. See if you can get some readings and go from there.

cerber is right! Please get as much info as you can and if you need more help, let us know what you find. We will give it a shot!

Most of what has been stated about a diesel getting 'hooked' on ether has been correct. Besides the glow plug / grid heater problem (You can bypass this possibility by simply unhooking power to the relay and keeping them from coming on!) the main problem with ether is that it is too combustible. It will ignite before TDC and raise combustion pressures too high. This will also cause any diesel left over in the cylinder to also ignite before TDC, raising combustion pressure even more! This is real hard on every part in there! Mostly what will happen is the connecting rod will bend (If it doesn't break!). The reason this is bad is it will lower the engines compression ratio. Since a diesel depends on compression for ignition, lower the compression pressure too much and it won't have enough heat to ignite the fuel (Hence, why it won't start!). The 'big boys' in pulling have lowered their compression to be able to turn higher RPMs and those engines won't start without ether.
Trust me, I wouldn't tell you something like this if it weren't true. A guy is just better off never using the stuff. It is much better to find the problem and fix it so no harm will come to your engine. In the long run it will be a lot cheaper too! (Considering that $5 can of ether can easily wind up costing you the price of a new engine . . . )

HTH, :c:

Not sure what trading one starting aid for another buys you there. Bottom line is it should be used as a troubleshooting measure or in the absence of intake heaters - not normal operation in above freezing temperatures.

I don't know why I passed that trouble shooting advice along.... It would be a way a guy could keep ether from exploding in the intake side of the valves when the heaters are energized.... But then I have been saying don't put any in there in the first place! Almost made it sound like I was saying it would be ok to 'administer' some . . . . :argh:

This is a really tough topic! Used to be some engines had a cable / switch you operated that was hooked up to a can of ether to use as a start aide. I have to admit, I'm no expert here, I just know that all our instructors ADAMANTLY and REPEATEDLY told us to always stay away from using ether in any engine. I can go back to the class room and take a lot of pics of damaged and mutilated parts if need be. I have to wonder if there isn't a safe or somewhat safe way to use it if you had to. We had one professor who did tell us that if we sprayed it into a rag and then held the rag near the intake while cranking, then we should be ok. I do believe that most problems with ether is because a guy used too much and sprayed it too far into the engine (Getting liquid right near the valves or actually into the cylinder!). Everyone knows why no liquids go inside a cylinder don't you? If not, please ask and we will have that conversation too!

I just maintain it is just much better to never use the stuff. 'Course I also know if it's -50F outside, that an engine isn't going to start either! I have been in temps near that and all we could do was start fires in pans under each engine we wanted to get running. It took quite a while, but after warming them this way, they did start.

no start
 

Just had a problem with a 2000, no start after sitting, the top of the fuel inlet(sending unit) on the fuel tank was rotted had a small hole, it let the fuel drain back to the tank, and wouldn't start, when forced to run (ether) it would pull enough fuel up and stay running (no fuel leak suction side) hope this helps.:hellox:

I have been known to use some WD-40 to start diesel tractors once or twice in my lifetime. Don't know if it's any better or worse then starter fluid but it seems like it wouldn't be quite so harsh on the system if a guy had to use somethin.

The current WD-40 formula is no longer flammable like it used to be.

I guess that's better then. Tells ya how often I do it. Thanks for the info though, I'd hate to be drownin my intake next time gettin pissed cause it wouldn't do anything.

I have a 2003 dodge with the same problem. started off that i had to crank her for a while in cold starts. then every start. then she needed ether if shut down for more then ten seconds, then five seconds... and so on. the problem... you guessed it... injectors. replaced them and it starts up on the third crank at max every time.

Interesting,.... i started her 20 times a day on ether for two years before getting the new formula 1 injectors. gave me a sickening feeling in my gut every time i heard that rapid ticking sound of the #1 cylinder firing on it. OOOooooooOOOhhhhh. gives me the shivers just thinking about the condition of those piston rings.

I have a 2003 cummins that is having to be started on ether too!!! I changed the heater grid and still have the same problem but the starting issues dont have anything to do with the injectors which all the machenics I have talked to have said the same thing!!!!! Also if every one is saying ether is so bad where does any one get there info on that because im a truck driver and all semis i have drove have an ether assist to start them and all the heavy equipment also do and every truck on my ranch have them also!!!!! So who ever is telling any one ether is bad they need to check there facts first!!!!

I thought that the start-aid ether spray systems went away years ago. I wasn't aware any of the currently manufactured equipment used it.
As for why it is bad to use: I was just going off what we were taught in school (And there is a whole lot of 'evidence' in ruined parts all over the class room shelves). Now, I don't know exactly what a person has to do to cause such devastation to an expensive engine. Maybe when it happens they are using way too much ether. All my instructors emphatically said to not use it! I had one that did tell us if we did ever 'have' to use it to spray it into a rag very lightly and then just hold the rag near the intake so the engine would only be able to get enough to be able to start and that this should help keep from causing any damage.......

(If I were to admit it, I would have to tell you I do have a can at the house . . .:pca1:
But it's actually for the potato gun . . . :w2:

And I would have to admit that it doesn't work for that either! )

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Oh, I thought I should add:
As long as it's above 10F or so outside, a Cummins doesn't ever need the grid heater for starting. I haven't had it hooked up in my '06 for 2 years now and it starts just fine. You can test this if you want by simply just hitting the starter as fast as you can turn the key from the off position. This won't give the grid heater time to 'glow' hot. If she starts right up just like normal, then the grid heater wasn't needed.

As for everyone saying the injector(s) can be bad and cause a no start, it can be the actual cause. What happens on a common rail engine is if one or more injectors leak / bleed off / won't seal and bypass too much fuel then the poor injection pump can't make enough volume while the engine is cranking to build the necessary thousands of psi to start the engine. Before the situation gets too bad, usually if the engine is first started on another fuel (Like ether) then the higher rpm at idle can make enough fuel pressure to allow the engine to run. Once the engine is running the bad injector is 'carried' and the engine will run mostly ok.
I say 'can be the actual cause' because cerberus60 is right: It can be a lot of different parts to cause the same condition and symptom of no start with out additional fuel added at start up to get the engine to run. Many times it is the injectors and just as Juggernaut noticed, repairing / replacing the bad injector(s) cures the problem.

I am not saying all this to be mean or anything: I just wanted to try and save any of my fellow owners some money. If you ever run into a 'mechanic' that says it can't be the injectors then you need to be careful. Perhaps he doesn't have the experience he needs (YET!). But he will get it eventually. Where the problem comes in is most times these mechanics just start replacing parts. As a hard and fast rule, you should always know what the problem is and what is causing it before replacing parts. We have one of those here and it is fun to watch him replace all kinds of things as he 'searches' for the problem. Oh he usually eventually gets it...... You just don't want to be paying the bill on all those 'extras' :tttt:

I had the same starting issues on my 03' Dually. After replacing and adjusting a bunch of things and no success, I replaced the injectors and there it was. Have not had any starting issues since.

I had the same issue with mine for many month's. tried everything but ended up it was losing fuel pressure through bad injectors. they just would not fire to start up, but the either was just enough to make them fire. New injectors and it has cured that issue. I used either very sparringly for many month's and it appears to have not hurt anything. I would encourage you to look at the fuel pressure output of your fuel pump. many right from the factory barely meet the needs of this fuel system, and a low fuel supply = poor lubrication.
A computer diagnostic test while trying to start my truck showed it was less than a third of what it needed for the injectors to fire. Wish you luck.....:hellox:

If you are under warranty, get those injectors checked and don't let anyone jerk you around. They have a bad reputation. :argh:

Roll over when cranking
 

My uncle worked for the roads department for years and ran graders most of those years.He always warned us when Dad got his first diesel Ram: if we ever had to use ether to have the motor cranking and spray it accross the inlet NOT into it. I have seen a snowmobile engine that was ruined by the use of too much ether; as in spark plugs pulled out and ether sprayed into each hole then a large shot right into the carburetor. The top rings were gone completely and the pistons were eroded down to the second ring and pistons and cylinder walls were scuffed badly!

I have had diesels since 1997 when I bought an F350 4x4, 7.3 PSD. Then a 1999 F550 PSD, and a 2001 F350 and last, my Silverado Duramax. I never experienced any trouble with starting any of them and I'm wondering, now, why not. It seems from this thread that quite a few guys have had issues with Cummins injectors. I'm not slamming Cummins; it's a very good engine. Maybe if I sniff around more in the forums that are specific to Ford and GM I'll find the same issues there.

We used to use ether to start a Caterpillar loader (355) years ago. Didn't seem to hurt it.

I think what you are seeing here is actually a small percentage of the engines in use having problems. When you think of it most owners don't even join a forum. Then the ones of us who post in threads like this are the ones who have problems and you never hear from all the ones that run nicely. If you go back and count in this thread, you will see it is only a few that have had this problem. If you then take the total sold you will see what I'm getting at. All I mean to point out with this comment is that the failures are actually pretty low. Thankfully!
I think it is good though to see that for most of the guys here that posted it turned out to be the injectors that were causing hard / no start conditions. It isn't always going to be the cause but you can't rule it out either! Injectors are a high wear item. They just are. Only thing you can do is filter the fuel better than what the OEMs are calling for and use an additive that will actually lube the system. (Well and don't get carried away with the programmer either! Cranking up the pressure all the time will at least wear out the injectors and the rest of the fuel system much faster; if it doesn't cause damage or failure.)

i had

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i had the same problem with my 06 it was the fuel pressur valve

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I had the same problem with my 06 it was the fuel pressure valve