Piston Rings Going Out?!
 

Well first off I want to that Tony at Might Diesel for all the GREAT service! I will deffinatly buy from him again! The Air Dog and 90HP injectors are amazing!

I just got my truck back today from the shop. Lately I have been having problems blowing white smoke at start up and a good amount of smoke coming from the breather tube. The shop(diesel diagnostics) told me my piston rings are starting to wear out. I do believe it but at 100,000 miles!? The smoke out of the breather tube has just started recently and has gotten worse. I just got my oil changed as I noticed about 2qts missing.(Amsoil)

Question is, what is the best approach to take this? They quoted around $4000 since they claim they need to pull the motor. In my jeep I was able to replace the rings without taking the engine out and just did it through where the pan is. HELP!

Thanks, Austin

edit: Also, the engine has a very different noise. Code said crankshaft sensor. Took it to the dealer and after clearing it the problem cleaned up some, but is back again with no code. It sounds like a "slow turbo wobble" and is very funky sounding. That worries me a lot.

did this just happen after the injector swap?

There's millions of things it could be.... I would get a more complete diangoses or atleast proof of a compression test and a wet compression test?

This happened before the injectors and the airdog. I was hoping it was a leaky injector so I had them all tested and put on new nozzles. (plus it was an excuse for more power)

And yes a compression test will be next. What are some of the major reasons that could cause this to happen?

I agree about more diagnosis! It is too hard to guess what is going on here.
You could pull off the boot coming out of your turbo to see if it is sending oil into the intercooler.
The only other thing I noticed so far is you don't list any gauges.... If you don't have any, you could have ran it too hot with the Edge 'unlocked' or even towing in too high of a setting. These things run pretty toasty stock so it is easy to add too much extra 'heat' to the fire and damage the engine.

Do you have the old oil filter you just changed? If you can get ahold of it, do! You can cut it open and check inside for metal from your engine. If there is any that you can see, don't start it again!! If it is making enough noise that you can hear, I would go ahead and cut open this filter if you can't get the one that just came off.

I'm not really following you with your description of the noise. I'm not trying to be cruel here; just to understand. How does the sound change? You know how your turbo sounds and how it changes tones under load (Basically how it speeds up and down itself). Is this sound coming from the engine or the turbo? Is the sound always there? Or does it get worse under certain conditions (Like under load, or unloaded - coasting. Or does it get worse cold or hot, or at idle or at a higher RPM)? Any more info you can give about what it does and sounds like will help. Even what the sound is like... Oh heck, just give us all the info you got! . . . LOL
Look around and see if any of that lost oil can be found anywhere on the outside of your engine (Or under the truck!). Try to tell where it came out of the engine if you see any.

I would agree about having to pull the engine. Look how close the oil pan sits above the cross member. There would be no way to pull it or get the rods out the bottom of the block. I would also wonder about a shop that gave an estimate without knowing what to replace or what is wrong. That is just scary in and of itself, I think. There is no way I'm going to tell you I want to replace your tire if it could be your whole rear axle. If the rings are bad.... how do you think the rest of the inside will be.... The pistons could be damaged. The cylinders could be scratched.... And if there is any metal floating around in the oil..... What I mean is: A good look in there will have to be taken to actually know what you will find in there. I hope that will not be necessary and a much easier problem can be found...
Let us know what you find!

I run the edge for the gauges. Egts set at 1350 and boost set at 42.

It has a wobble turbo sound, but it is deffinatly not the turbo. To describe it best the engine makes a "Che... Che.. Che. Che" you only hear it out of the exhaust though, up front you can't pay attention because of all the smoke coming from the breather tube. I have been running amsoil for about 35000 miles with no issues at all. Also when you take off the oil cap at idle a goof amount of white smoke puffs come out. It really seems like a hole in a piston or rings. To try and get the rings to possibly "seat" should I hook a trailer on it and drive it like hell? Or go ahead and take it to cummins?

I am going to try and post a video if I can find my camera.

-Austin

it is the rings or a piston have you noticed a loss of power hard start ups diesel in your oil

It is very easy to tell the truck takes longer to start up. After it starts it never dies and has never hesitated to die.

I think I want you to take off the oil filter and cut it open. Most all quick oil change places have a cutter. Looks similar to a tubing cutter; just much bigger.
Ideally you could retrieve your old oil filter you just changed. Even if that isn't available anymore the new one should show any metal flakes if there are any. This 'test' is actually one of the cheaper ones you can do. Yeah, it will cost you a new filter; but it will be worth it!
If it is puffing a lot of smoke out the breather, I have to wonder if the rings can't be helped by hooking a heavy load and pushing it hard. If it is a hole in a piston, you don't want it to get bad enough to run away with itself (It will run on any fuel it can get! Even engine oil will cause it to run away with itself. Diesels don't have an air valve in the intake so remember that it will just rev to the moon if it can find the 'fuel' anywhere!)

Try hard to get us that video! Hopefully we can tell a lot from it! Take several angles, just letting the camera run the whole time. Move close and far away too letting the camera run. The microphones on them make it hard to hear engine noises sometimes. Hopefully by walking in from about 25 feet away will give enough of a contrast and change for us to be able to hear what is going on......

UPDATE:

I think possibly my truck is camera shy! For the past 2 weeks it has been smoking out the breather and oil cap. I got a hold of a video camera and got a video of a cold start up(hasnt been started in 2 days) and there was a very small puff of smoke out the stacks and that was it!

No smoke out the breather either upon cold start up. The oil cap had some puffs of smoke coming out, which I dont think it should have?!?!?!) but not nearly what it was before!

Took it for a drive to get the engine to warm up and the truck just runs like a BOSS. I wish I could keep the EGTs lower but I try to keep them below 1400. After getting the engine to 190*F for a couple of minutes I stopped at the gas station to check everything again.

The smoke out of the oil cap was very noticeable! The was just a little, little bit coming out of the breather tube. Not much at all but if you look at it close you can tell there is some smoke.

I will cut the oil filter open when I get the chance to look and see what I can find. As of right now the truck is running a lot better than it was. The Airdog and the injectors made the truck into a different animal. The real concern now is the smoke out of the oil cap and breather tube!

Thanks, Austin

slow your roll
 

i just got done replacing rings in an 05 dodge cummins parts alone where around 600 dollars for rings, rod bearings, and gaskets. the truck had only 120 thousand miles. two other shops told the guy he had a whole in a piston from a bad injector. i pulled the head since it had excessive blowby and found pistons and injectors looked fine. pulled pan and rod/pistons out and found two rings broken and all rings wore horribly and 3 more broke pulling off pistons. i fixed the truck for around 2200 dollars u dont have to pull engine on a 4x4 just need to undo motor mounts and raise engine for pan to clear. not sure if this will work on a 2 wheel drive. good luck.

man i would have never thought rings would go out like that.

Ya I am thinking the rings are either breaking or I have a small hole in a piston. The engine still sounds rough sometimes but then other times its not as bad. Although smoke always comes out of the breather tube and the oil cap. Sometimes worse than others but it does happen.

This saturday I am going to the diesel dyno in East Texas so I will be able to put my truck against other straight piped cummins and hear the difference.

I really hope its not the rings but there is really not too much I can do at this point :argh:

Edit: Also I shouldnt have a problem clearing the axel and crossmember under the oil pan. That might be one of the good things about a 6in lift! I wish I could do this myself but I do not have a shop here at college lol. If I can't get a good price here I will try and hold off till Christmas break and pull the head and drop the pan myself. Hopefully I can make it a nice one week job.

Man I hope this goes well for you. If it is rings, I would not run it until I got it fixed. I would not want to take a chance on scoring a cylinder! (You aren't going to run it at the dyno are you? :rake: )
I have a 12V that has a hole in the side of the block large enough that it 'removed' the motor mount. Supposedly it was well cared for at least most of it's 145,k. I don't know why some don't make it.... Another I have with at least 350,k had lots of rod knock and lots of 'shiney' stuff in the oil filter. Since the speedo quit, there is no way of knowing if the guy guessed right on the mileage or not. I do know that one missed proper maintenance, so it has a reason for self destructing....
I don't know why some fall apart for no apparent reason. Since no one is perfect, maybe it is just the .01% showing up that have a defect.... Who knows.

My '03 started producing some blow-by at 107k miles, and by 109k was REALLY smoking out of the breather (but idled and ran flawlessly), so I had the engine pulled (2WD and too hard to pull the pan in place).

Unfortunately #1 cyl has a deep vertical gouge on the dead front 5/16" wide and about 0.015-0.020" deep, and #6 has a vertical scratch at the dear rear of the bore.

Haven't pulled the pistons, as I am getting my engine remanned to STD w/ 6 sleeved cylinders.

The engine started perfectly, ran flawlessly w/ no shake or vibration, so the injectors seem fine, but the damage was dramatic, and without explanation.

Checking around, a LOT of 24v 5.9s destroy #1 and #6 at just over 100k miles. A lot of theories, but no real answers...

Anyone have any ideas why our engines are having this problem at low miles?

Bob

my 01 pwerstroke has exessive blow by and i am gettin my motor sleved and new rings. Make sure ur cylender walls are scared or you will continue to have problems.

The shop basicly said CHECK THE INJECTORS. In my case what started to cause it was that my crank position sensor went out and did NOT throw a CEL. Therefore, I never had any idea until I noticed the blow by.

Don't let the dealership fool you, the #6 is the one that almost always goes out and it is not because of dirty air. The tube goes right to #2 first and #6 last, if there is bad air #1-2 will suffer first. It comes down to two reasons:

1. Too much heat on #6. It is tucked in the back with the worst air flow and maybe the coolant gets too hot in the back and the temp sensor is in the front.

2. The injectors. I went ahead and replaced the #6 injector on my truck during the rebuild just to eliminate that idea. Although you couldn't link that was the problem, a $300 injector is good insurance!

Also the 04.5-05 engines are the worst for this problem, and seem to happen between 100,000 and 125,000 miles. So be careful and watch out between those years :argh:

Wonderful, I'm at 83 thousand and have to worry about not getting half the miles out of my CTD that I got out of my 318 and it was still running fine at 222 thousand on AMS oil.

So I guess I need to do that mod to get more coolant to number 6 to keep it cool

Herb, I have ran amsoil in my truck since 50k miles and I guess I can say it did not help me any unfortunatly. Also, I do not know of a mod to keep the number 6 cool and nobody knows if that is the problem, it just logicaly makes since. I would say when you get a couple thousand more miles to go ahead and just replace the injector for #6 that way you can check that off of the list.

Hopefully Dodge will get enough complaints that something might happen.

So replacing the #6 injector will help stop this from happening or is it just what there trying and I don't expect Dodge to do a thing, but you think Cummins would step up

Isnt that what this is for? To increase coolant flow to #5 and #6 cylinders?
https://www.dieselbombers.com/5-9-li...er-bypass.html

Herb, I can not say that will prevent it from happening but at least you can "check" that off of the list so you know that is not what caused it.

And harry, that does not seem like a bad idea but I am going to wait a little bit before I do that. Now that it is getting cooler my temp is no longer going between 185-215 constantly. It stays right at 188-192 :5:

Mine has never got over 190 since I put the Rokk timing advance on it, use to run at 200 before that, but the bypass sounds good too, can't hurt.

Yeah, I don't want to scare you or anything Herb. I'm not not every 04.5 and 05 has that problem. I just wanted to send out a warning from what happened to mine.

I am also going to look more into that bypass and check it out! That thread is a little messy though on the subject.

Herb, Will that timing sensor from rokk tech interfere with other tuners that adjust timing with their own program? Just curious...looking up the rokktech sensor right now, first ive heard about it.

There is another bypass kit. Its called the opie bypass kit if you wanna look it up and compare notes.

You can back off the rokk sensor, but pushed all the way up is 2 degrees and you can back it off using pieces of black tape, each layer is a 10th of a degree for custom tuning if needed.

The Rokk Tech sensor is 'physically' moving the crank position sensor. It will always add what ever timing it is positioned to. Don't run it with other 'tuners' that add timing as well or you could easily have too much!!

To answer your question-yes, the 4WD pan is relatively easy to pull. The 2WD MAY be doable, but you REALLY have to lift the engine to get the pan off-the cross member is almost against the pan.

Bob

---AutoMerged DoublePost---

After 2002, Cummins will have NOTHING to do w/ our engines.

Cummins told me that Dodge bought '03 and up engines from them with NO WARRANTY at all.

"You're on your own" is what Cummins told me.

They also will NOT work on the engines unless you sign a release saying that you understand that they do not have any of the electronic specs for the engine management system. It seems Dodge refuses to let Cummins have any data on the injection system.

The local Cummins shop wanted $6000 just to pull the engine and open it up. No thanks!

I fail to see how such a dysfunctional "marriage" of chassis builder and engine builder has lasted this long!

Bob

wow just wow, an i wanted to buy an 03 common rail, sorry to hear this guys

Hard to believe Cummins would let Dodge run their image down by trusting them to take care of customers, never mind letting them design the engine management system which could make your engine look like shit.

Bob is right. One of my friends owns a Cummins/semi shop in Dallas and Cummins in the Dodge, and Cummins in industrial world is very different. Cummins sells Dodge their 5.9 motor with NO warrenty, and NO electronics. All the timing, injection, ect, are dodge products and not Cummins.

I wouldn't say that Dodge is "running down" their image at all. Even still these motors are rated to 300,000 miles. While Powerstroke and Duramax are rated to 150,000 miles. Something is wrong with the 04.5 and 05 models though from what it sounds like.

Fine except mine is a 05, and already I know I need to change injectors before 100000 and hope mine isn't one with the rings going bad and I do the by-pass to help cool number 5 and 6 and pray work picks up so I can afford to keep it running, and eating would be nice too!

If you're only at 100k, you can probably have Jeff Garmon (or somebidy else) do a check and install new nozzles for under $100 each vs. $300-400 for factory rebuilds. The engine rebuilder doing my engine said that the gouge was most likely due to over fueling from an injector, so they suggested extra filtration (AirDog or equiv), which should lengthen the life span of the redone injectors.

He's got mine right now, in fact.

Bob
Garmons Diesel Performance Home

Nozzles wont fix a damaged injector or body. We can have the factory unit remaned for about $155.00 a peice but if there's a cracked body you'll have no choice but to buy a new injector!
If you are comfortable doing the work yourself, give me or shea a call tommorow and we'll get you set to have your injectors checked out! All you'll have to do is R&R them!

Just curious, if the return circuit (ball and seat) are worn or damaged, and the injector is returning fuel at too low a pressure, will your $155 rebuild replace THOSE parts as well?

My understanding was that a bad return circuit can ONLY be repaired/rebuilt by a rebuilder like Bosch, or by F1, who appears to have a proprietary fix w/o using factory parts.

In my case, Jeff Garmin in GA (Garmons Diesel Performance Home) tested my injectors for flow, return, and spray pattern and said that they were all absolutely like new. Total charge was $30/ea for testing to 23kpsi.

That was nice, but leave me up in the air why my #1 cylinder had a large (5/16" wide, maybe 0.020" deep) vertical gouge and was blowing LOTS of blow-by out the draft tube.

For what it's Jeff said that depending upon what abrasive was in the fuel, the nozzles CAN wear, screwing up the cylinder walls as fuel is misdirected and washing the oil off the walls.

Bob

First of all, IIRC Don M, or Jeff eaither one dont have the capabilities to do a full test on the CR Injector. Only a handfull of Bosch centers around the US can. Our Rebuilder takes the injector does a complete diagnoses, Call's us and gives his recomendation.
If the injector is in rebuildable shape, It leaves their shop in a fully operational state. Whats changed in the injector depends on whats worn and damaged.
The Parts F1 uses ARE bosch products. I've also got multiple customers with legal cases on Don Morrison. I cant discuss in regards to what but I will say it's involving CR injectors and poor repair and customer relations.
Abrasives in the fuel? with a 2 Micron filter, and proper water draining and filter draining methods I just dont see that much wear of a nozzle.

PM me and I'll be glad to discuss further!

Lucas

This entire post is bogus Lucas. Once again you have slandered me and F1 Diesel.

Please allow me to correct the lies below:

Firstly, we dont use only Bosch parts during remanufacturing. We have a wide range of manufacturers parts available. We also have the test equipment to fully test all CR injectors. Not just the Cummins, Isuzu, etc, but all CR injectors from BMW, Mercedes, etc. We can also test the newest Piezo injectors. We also test and remanufacture the 6.7 liter coded injectors. Our Customers include Dodge Dealerships nationwide and many aftermarket performance vendors. We have remanufactured over 500 sets in just the past 2 years. This is over 3000 individual injectors.

An earlier poster pointed to a process we have to repair ball seats. This is correct. We have this process and use it often. We have worked with European tool manufacturers on the design and implementation of the repair tooling. We have been doing this for over 3 years now. We also designed the test procedures to check the ball seats for excessive leakage in the control chamber before even trying to repair the seats with our process. We developed and sold the tooling idea. This tool will be available for other rebuilders on the open market soon. In the event a ball seat cant be remanufactured, we have NEW parts to replace them with.

There is a ton of misinformation floating around all over the forums about CR injector remanufacturing, the tooling and test equipment needed and the methods that actaually work I cant possibly keep up with them.

Let me be very frank here. We were the first to offer a remanufactured CR injector to the Cummins community. Other shops tried like crazy to deflect this money saving move. They told everyone that would listen that "parts were not available" "Bosch has not taught anyone how to do it yet" "the test equipment is only available in Europe" We have heard it all and of course we went on saving people lots of money by remanufacturing their injectors for a low cost while the other shops had to charge 400-500 bucks for a Bosch reman. Many of our injectors that we reman's as far back as 2005 are still on the road. Some with hundreds of thousands of miles on them.

Lastly, no one is suing F1. No one is suing me. None of your customers you cant speak about are suing me either. Your full of it Lucas.

There are events and there are patterns. A single event when someone posts slander on the internet is just an event. But you and others have a "pattern" of posting BS lies about me and F1. I demand this site respond and delete your BS lies. I demand you delete it and apologize as well. You can get this site and yourself into lots of trouble by posting lies on here.

Im certain I will get banned for defending our name and hard work on this site, but like everything else in life the truth finally comes out in the end.

Finally, Garmons test equipment will also test all CR injectors without a problem. I know the guys who sold him the equipment and have used the equipment myself here locally. It works 100% to fully test them all.

Cheaper and better ways of keeping injectors working , I love it

Don,
I appreciate your reply.
I'm not getting in a match with you. And you can see I've said plenty of good things.
You telling Olee Poole that I must have been "installing" the injectors incorrectly, Well thats just a way out I guess. I wont go into the details on that but If you would like me to I will.
I'll also post the Information one of my customers typed up, We can post the letter that DieselNut Wrote.....
As far as everything else goes , I guess It'll come out in time. I still think you've built some of the best VP Injectors that I've ever seen. I brag to everyone about your VP injectors.
If you had taken care of Me, The THREE customers that I HAD TO PAY FOR NEW INJECTORS FOR, Or Olee Poole, this would have never been an issue. I know you, I know your ways. I'm not trying to hurt your company, or your feelings but If you would like me to post the 50 + Emails between Olee poole, You and April and Myself I'll be glad to...Maybe we can get the say other 100+ folks that have had issues with your injectors in a CR involved.
Look, I'm not trying to attack you and thats obviously what your doing.
I'm not an injector man, Never claimed to be, and that plenty obvious, But What I posted came directly from over 20 Bosch Shops nationwide. If you dont like it, Call them!
If you have somthing you would like to discuss, and see if we cant get some common ground Call me, You've always had my number and never called..Just April. I'll be glad to talk to you, You explain your side and what your "really" getting at here. And I'll consider changing my post if you can give me factual information and be straight up with me.
If I'm wrong, I dont have a problem saying I was so just call me and we'll talk it out.

---AutoMerged DoublePost---

IIRC = If I remember correctly.

But you told me in an email the only thing you couldnt do was rapidly actuate the injector.
While the Bosch Stands and the new Hartridge CR Stand will.

Secondly...According to say a handful of folks you "WERE" using core parts to fix injectors with problems before parts were available...Is that not correct?

I've got a call into the two customers that are in the process of taking legal action, If it's okay with them, I'll post their names and a contact number to those interested in speaking directly to the customer.

What test bench are you using Don? Just curious not trying to start a war or anything...Just asking




---AutoMerged DoublePost---

And since we're on the topic, I thought some of the viewers might like to do some reading regarding the test benches so all this makes more sense

Hartridge Ltd
The Bosch Site also has some great information.

Again, most of your information is incorrect.

Im not sure what part of "we can fully test injectors" you dont understand.

We can fire the injector multiple times to simulate up to 4 injection events per injection cycle. Our bench is fully programable for whatever we want or need.

Garmons bench will fire the injector up to 3 times. Enough to test the whole array of CR injectors used in our trucks.

Please provide these peoples names who are ( according to you ) suing me or F1. So we may file counter actions. The only time we did any business with you was through Olee about 18 months ago.

For everyone else; please understand that if you are using any high performance part in your truck there is well established precendent in the courts for this kind of stupidness. It is fully understood that if you modify a licensed vehicle for street operation and it fails, breaks, blows up, runs crappy, etc it IS ALL YOUR RESPONSIBILITY. You are now providing your own warranty and your own cost to repair damaged parts and pieces. If an individual can not pay the bill to modify a truck or lose time from work or play, they should leave their vehicles in an OEM trim. We have had this conversion in the past. Vendors all know it and end users know it to. The courts certainly know it. Modifying a street licensed vehicle is also very illegal in the feds eyes. Is this were we are going now? Stop the retarded childish crap. Pay your own way in life. Lucas I am old enough to be your father. Last I heard you were not old enough to buy alcohol yet. Sub 20 years.

Please go lie about someone else and delete your incorrect and slanderous posts. It is my final request.