I'll shed my thought on your experience, Chris, specifically the map increase. I have to make the assumption that your map sensor is located at or near the intake plenum, and also that you have a wastegated turbo. Sorry that I am not more familiar with the ctd and dodge mechanics.

The job of the wastegate is to take a pressure signal, from the compressor discharge, and use it to bypass exhaust flow at a given COP, compressor outlet pressure. My suspicion is that the water is changing the dynamic of the wastegate.

Take this for what it is worth. If you have ever seen 10 micron atomization, it looks white, and the droplets just barely descend in a free air stream. Fog is 10 um. From the closeup pic (very nice photography) I would estimate your sauder mean diameter to be in the 60-80 or above category. It is the same challenge everyone fights. But your method does not require attention to this detail. By centermass aiming, the drops are hitting at low velocity, without the threat of impingement damage, obviously you have thought this out in advance. The mounting looks scary to me. That environent is full of mechanical stress challenges that i do not pretend to fully understand.

 

Yes, the mounting was an attempt to not disturb the airflow too much. The injector body and nozzle are of the same diameter as the hub of the wheel, and the standpipe does not enter the airstream until the 90* bend at the injector holder. The solenoid valve is bracketed.....however, as said earlier, the tube broke on the outside of the compressor from vibration and some rough bouncing at one point. The tubing is heavy wall chrome plated brass...but brittle is brittle and that's where it broke. This is the reason I wanted to build a new mount using a 3 camered spoke ring and a smaller nozzle/carrier. I just need to figure out the best way to deliver fluid to the nozzle without creating too much turbulence with a water line. I would like to run it through the 3 spokes that would be hollow and feed it from the outside. We'll see, I want to revisit this project though and take it farther. Who's making some top of the line nozzles that will provide a vary narrow and hollow spray pattern yet not be too intrusive??

Chris

 

http://www.thedieselgarage.com/forum...ad.php?t=20617

We are on the same page. Look near the end of this thread for the mount you described. I still have not prototyped it, but some day.

Oh, ignore the morons on that thread. We know better.

 

Keep the personal attack out of this please. The vast majority of those posting in the thread are certainly not moron's and have very valid points especially when your talking about an unproven "theory".

 

Is this thread discussing an unproven theory? If so, somebody should tell Chris.

Obviously the points of the "vast majority" have been invalidated here. Thanks for pointing that out.

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I was curious if you knew or speculated how much added resistance the apparatus added to the high speed air stream. With air likely exceeding 300 mph, it is kinda sorta important to compressor efficiency maps.

 

Yes...it is an unproven theory or else there wouldnt be anymore need to debate the issue. Chris isnt lobbing personal attacks but debating the topic of discussion. No more personal attacks.

The vast majority still believe in evolution. Once again an unproven theory. Get on with the topic of discussion without personal attacks or negative attitude. Thanks for your support.

 

okay, a little background on the project is in order to clarify it. When I was playing with this idea, I was in the process of fabbing for the compound turbo install. Just a few years ago, secondary turbo selection left for a choice of streetability, or high horsepower. There was a large gap between the two. Most used their factory HX35 to maintain off idle performance at a sacrifice of reducing top end HP potential, as well as toning quite high drive pressures and CA temps. Of the few turbos available boasting the best of both worlds, the average guy, or at least me, had a hard time justifying the $2K price tag. After much number crunching, I realized a smallish secondary turbo could be made to act as if it had a larger compressor by 1) reducing inlet air temps, and 2) removing heat during secondary compression resulting a denser air MASS outlet. In my compounds, secondary inlet air temps (primary turbo outlet temps) lived in the 350-400 degree range. Anyone that plays with numbers knows what effect these kind of temps make on a compressor trying to compress a second stage. For that matter, how ANY turbo would react with those kinds of temps. Intercooling was sought to bring temps down, so that the secondary could become more efficient. In trade for a second CAC, all the maze of plumbing, and sheer space requirements, I opted to duplicate the effect with secondary pre-turbo WI. After all, the desired effect would only be a variable for a small percentage of engine hour time, so why install an elaborate air to air or air to water cooler for such a small duty cycle. If it was a track only vehicle...maybe...but not for the family taxi and grocery getter street rod.

While I built and tested components prior to actually installing the compounds, the R&D was really focused on them. The theory was that during second stage compression an injectable "mist" would negate the effects of high inlet temps, as well as absorb a degree of secondary compression heat. Proof? I had none. I needed to install a MAF sensor capable of handling the air flow conditions...ie high MAP and high velocity. That is where I left off. The results at the time I slowed progress showed no impingement effects on the secondary compressor wheel after thousands of miles at a rough 30% WI duty cycle, a lower CA temp at the engine all other variables constant, and a felt difference in the ol' butt meter. These days, better turbos are available, and at a slightly lower cost, but the variable still remains.....secondary living conditions are the same, so while we may be able to make the secondary more efficient and drivable with a new fancy turbo, why not improve on the conditions under which it operates?

I'll admit, I jumped on to the bigger is better bandwagon, and swapped the HX35 for a larger BW S3A. While top end is blistering, and drive pressures are optimum for 80 or so pounds of MAP, the low end has suffered. I didn't spend the bucks on the expensive S300 variants, I simply had this turbo due to a John Deere in frame we did on a commercial boat. The turbo had lots of life left, and the rest is history. I want to now go back to a smaller secondary to regain some street manners, and I'll work out how to get the top end I want as well.

Anyway, there you have it.

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After reading the entire 10 pages of that thread I see our motive is the same, though our goal just a little different. In layman's terms, I desire to make my secondary compressor act as if it were by itself, without the negative influences delivered by the primary, all the while utilizing 3x the ambient pressure available by having the primary compressor upstream. dauntimng task maybe, unattainable, I don't think so. Now I know it is lofty to think we can deliver cool crisp 70* air to the secondary, and I don't aspire to those conditions, but anything we can do efficiently to lower the current 400* would drastically increase the efficiency of the secondary, and allow us to run a significantly smaller secondary compressor. A smaller secondary would lend itself well to better off idle response due to less rotational energy demands. The unforeseen obstacle not withstanding is still maintaining adequate inlet diameter so as not to bottle neck the intake tract too much.

Back to the WI in itself. Why not do away with DC water pumps that are stalled at 200 psi, made of plastic, and prone to failure? Why not a belt driven, clutch operated 3 stage water pump similar to those used in pressure washers? At 4 digit pressures, a smallish flow furnace nozzle could be used due to the vast angle and cone types available to achieve high flow rates could they not? And at a very small droplet size? I don't believe parasitic HP loss would be much of a variable, they are driven by fairly small gasoline power plants and even electric motors.

I had to post to see your images of the nozzle mount, but after doing so realize this is exactly the mount in my mind's eye. Now if the same frame used to mount the nozzle could be made to internally carry the liquid, I think we'd be on to something!

 

i think its a great idea, hopefully one day ill have th emoney to do a nice setup like that on my VE truck.