An interesting take on fuel treatments
 

Okay guys, I was spending time over on DTR and ran accross this post. I checked with the poster (Waynebyrom) and he said it would be alright to repost.

This is a little off key from what I would expect. We all know that fuel quality is lower than it was 4 years ago, I'd like to see some technical data on the fuel's. I'm thinking of having an analysis done on some fuel samples.



My email from Cummins says no need for fuel additives

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After reading many discussions on rather to use additives and what kind and tests I have read on here. I found it neccessary to email Cummins on this and here is their reply.

You have contacted Cummins Inc. at our Customer Assistance Center in Columbus, Indiana. This is our worldwide headquarters and has been our home since Clessie Cummins founded the company, here, in February of 1919.
This year marks our 90th anniversary in business and we will continue to work to provide the kind of products and service that will keep us in business for another 90 years.

Lubricity is the fuel quality that prevents or minimizes wear in diesel fuel injection equipment. Diesel lubricity is largely provided by trace levels of naturally occurring compounds in the fuel that form a protective layer on metal surfaces.

In order to meet the Ultra-Low Sulfur Diesel (ULSD) specifications, refineries now utilize processes that not only reduce the sulfur content of diesel blend components, but also remove compounds that provide lubricity.
This has led to some concern that ULSD fuel might result in lubricity problems for fuel injection equipment.

Should you be concerned about the fuel lubricity for your Cummins Turbo Diesel engine? The answer is no.

All diesel fuel sold in the U.S. since January 2005 must meet a fuel lubricity specification established by the American Society for Testing and Materials (ASTM). Any fuel lubricity additives necessary to meet this new specification are added by the fuel suppliers before the fuel hits the pumps. So you do not need to add fuel lubricity additives to your highway diesel fuel.

We are happy to provide information and assistance to our customers, however, our distributors and dealers are our primary points of sales and are the proper place to inquire about availability and prices of Cummins products.

To locate the nearest Cummins-authorized Dealer or Distributor Service Provider call our toll free customer assistance line 1-800-DIESELS
(343-7357) or for computer assistance in locating a Service Provider, use Cummins Service Locator, which can be found on Cummins website:

http://wsl.cummins.com/ServiceLocato...n=showworldmap


We occasionally misunderstand a question. If our answer to your communication looks like we have misunderstood your e-mail please reply with further inquiry.

Please let us know if you have other questions and if away from your computer or have a time-critical request that needs more urgent attention, feel free to call us toll-free (from North America) on 1-800-DIESELS (343-7357).

Cummins Email (via webpage):

http://www.cummins.com/cmi/content.j...33&menuIndex=7


Customer Assistance Center
Cummins, Inc.
Columbus, Indiana, USA

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: Hello, I recently purchased an 06 Dodge Ram 2500 with the 5.9 Cummins and was reading on several dodge ram websites concerning gas additives. I am very confused as to if at all I should be using a gas additive. The gas at the stores here in San Antonio mostly have the ULSD fuel and it seems its not very good for the 5.9 engine from what I have read. Can you tell me if I should be using an additive and if so what do you suggest? I dont want to damage my engine in anyway. Thanks in advance for your reply. Wayne

So my next question here would be the differences in the engine and injection pump years. This is a question and not a comment, is this answer applicable to the Common Rail as well as the 12V and 24V or is this just for the the CR and up in years.

This guys question was geared around a CR truck. There's no way IMO this new fuel provides enough lubrication. We've got a little discussion going on over there regarding the lubricity requirements for each style injector. Factory trucks are having issues at 30to 100,000 miles. Thats BS if you ask me! The VP-44 we know benifits from a good fuel treatment. I almost feel that the failures are more related to electronic componets on the CR trucks. All of the CR trucks Dodge and Chevy have injector issues. Injectors dont fail without reason? We know the weak spots of each injection system but there's a list of failure types thats all over the board. Is each type of failure independent or caused by another condition? There's lots of information regarding the injectors failing but nothing really regarding stopping the issue!

Maybe the guys from Vulcan will step in and give there input.

I was at amsoil last May and one of the presentations was on today's diesel fuels. Here is how I summed it up:

Diesel Fuel

AMSOIL did a sample survey of diesel fuels across the US, Canada, and Mexico to show the variation in fuels and the importance of additives. Fuels can vary in particulate matter, cetane levels, bio percentages, and sulfur content.
Cetane can vary from 40 to 60, ideal being around 50 for more efficient combustion.
The sulfur content of fuels has fallen in recent years. Now all highway fuels are required to be 15ppm or less. Most fuels tested actually were found in the 1-2ppm level, showing there is very little lubricity in today's fuels, which can shorten the life of the pump and injectors.
Biodiesel has gained popularity and does help add lubricity back into the fuels, but it can be hard to tell if a pump has any bio or what percentage it might be. If it contains 5% or less, there is no requirement to even state that on the pump. For 6-20%, the pump just has to say it contains bio, but does not have to specify the percentage.
All this variation just emphasizes the importance of treating the fuel to help the engine run more efficiently and give it longer life.


With all the variation out there, if my adding another $6 to $200 worth of fuel may help, then I'm gonna do it.

Thanks Heath! May I post this information where he's posted? I've also got some stanadyne information that I'll get some details from!

No prob.

(I recently purchased an 06 Dodge Ram 2500 with the 5.9 Cummins and was reading on several dodge ram websites concerning gas additives. )

i think that might be his problem:tttt:

every, and I mean every gas station here in ohio has a sticker on the diesel pump that stated that it's 15ppm ULSD and it not to be used in any vehicle prior to 07 (i think) since it may cause damage to the engine

also makes me wonder.. where the h e double hockey sticks and I supposed to fill up? :scare2::argh:

actually, I think i read it wrong.. i'll go check tonight

Actually that sticker should say the 15ppm fuel can be used in any vehicle. It's the other way around, you can't use higher than 15ppm in 07 and newer.

That right there is the problem. And Cummins of course, gives the standard corporate politically correct answer vetted by their PR dept. They are not going to tell you any different, no matter what. Too controversial, bad PR.

Diesel was fine all by itself they way they made it coming right from the refinery 15 years ago. Now they had to create a new ASTM standard for fuel lubricity to force suppliers to correct the lubricity deficiency madated by the EPA and green lobby.

Who you gonna trust to make sure your fuel has adequate lubricity? There's no such thing as too much fuel lubricity, won't hurt a thing. The older engines will run on just about anything combustible up to and including straight motor oil. May be a little stinky, but if it'll burn they'll run on it. For a long, long time. To little fuel lubricity is a completely different story.

Well, this thread is timely. I just got a reply from Shell regarding my question to them about cetane and lubricity of their "premium" diesel fuel. This is what they answered:

Thank you for bringing your concerns to our attention.

This is in response to your inquiry regarding the cetane number of our diesel fuel.
We were advised that Cetane will be at least 40 but usually in the 43 to 46 range
for Shell ULSD. A lubricity additive is added to all ULSD as well.

We appreciate the opportunity to serve you in this matter and look forward to
providing you with quality Shell branded products and service in the future.

If you need further assistance please contact our Shell Solutions Center at
1-888-GO-SHELL (1-888-467-4355).


Sincerely,
Shell Customer Care


Now the answer is not too specific is it? But they do put a lubricity additive in their fuel.

I'm only aware of one study in the public domain that showed what raw fuel tested at and how that compared to most of the additives on the shelf today. I was amazed to see that most of the so called additives do nothing for making the fuel more lubricated. Some even hurt lubricity!
By just stating that fuel doesn't lube well enough because it is low in sulfur is indicative of not actually understanding what is going on here. Sulfur doesn't lube fuel at all. Now, removing it does tend to lower the fuels ability to lube, yes. That is because the process of removing the sulfur also happens to remove components that lube the fuel. But to use the measure of sulfur in fuel as an indication of how well it lubes, is false science! Refer back to Cummins response, Shell's response or any other statement you can find on corporate websites all across the globe. They will all tell you that a lube has to be added to fuel now days. The EPA won't allow any lube added to fuel to also add back in sulfur!
You can read this study for yourself and see what I'm talking about . . . . (It also opened my eyes to some of the so- called additives on the market today. Marketing hype and sales pitches are not what I want or need to put into my engine. I want to stick with proven, tested products. :rocking: Wonder if I can catch the kid before he opens that gallon of Marvel . . . . )
(Don't get me wrong: I think that fuel suppliers are going to just do the minimum and cut costs where they can. So will every other supplier that we purchase anything from. That is just a fact of life. What is that 'old saying' - Cav et Emptor . . . . maybe?

Diesel Fuel Additive Test

yep sulphur added to fuel was to collect and disperse water in fuel, the less sulphur the more water causing injection problems. i have also been told to use a fuel additive in every tank for the reason of the govt robbing us of cetane and other good stuff. i use power service.

Caveat Emptor...buyer beware.

What about the HFRR (high frequency reciprocating rig) test results I have seen posted? They seem scientific enough to me to show the added lubricitiy that some of these products supply. The best among them was an Opti Lube product as I recall.

The HFRR results is a good indicator, as long as you are comparing apples to apples. I think if you consider they ran 2-stroke at 200-to-1 it becomes a a very attractive solution. I believe most using 2-stroke are running around double that concentration. At that rate it should be a top, if not the best performer.

If you can get it running 2% Bio is the best lube for the fuel system. As for some of the other additives they listed I don't like using those that contain a lot of solvent like Power Service.

Everyone who doesn't have their head in the sand knows the govt/EPA has dealt a rotten blow to the diesel world in the name of saving the planet. The controversy along with fierce competition in the petroleum industry just make fuel additives a non politically correct subject altogether.

Bastards. :td:

Sure would like to get a hold of this additive and try it out. Fleetguard Platinum Plus® DFX Catalyst.


Platinum Plus® DFX Fuel Borne Catalyst is a technologically advanced diesel fuel additive designed to increase the rate and completeness of fuel combustion and to clean up fuel systems and injectors.

Composition: Platinum Plus DFX contains a patented bimetallic combustion catalyst that increases power and restores fuel economy while reducing particulate matter (PM), soot, smoke, and gaseous emissions. Platinum Plus DFX upgrades typical #2 diesel to an “ultra” premium diesel. Platinum Plus DFX also contains a premium detergent additive that cleans the fuel system of deposits and when used regularly, restores fuel economy.

Application: Platinum Plus DFX is formulated for use with #2 diesel, low sulfur diesel fuel, kerosene, or biodiesel blends. For emissions reduction and to restore fuel economy, the minimum recommended dosage is 1 gallon (3.78 L) per 1500 gallons (5678.12 L) of fuel.

Hmmm. . . . . :humm: I have to wonder if the stuff would do all that. Sounds like a 'commercial' if you know what I mean. Don't get me wrong: I hope it would work! I just remember the 'ads' for the new emissions motors. Didn't they talk about better fuel economy and such? I was just talking to a friend who drives for a living. The 'older' trucks they have that are non- DPF and non- Urea (All '07 and newer) get over 4 mpg. The newest ones with all that emission crap are getting under 4 mpg. I know my math is real bad but that seems like less economy to me! It also seems to me that the ads may have been wrong . . . . :w2:

Don't get me wrong here cause I am no subject matter expert but isn't the reason that guy's went away from propane is because it burns to complete and has a habit of burning through piston's and anything that say's it cleans fuel deposit's has alcohol blended in and is a drying agent on seals and pumps.

This is more a question here then a fact.

I feel propane is ok as long as too much isn't used. If larger amounts are injected, then the fire can get 'too hot'. I think that is what burns the engine down. Just like simply adding too much diesel. . . .

All of this chemistry is a deeply involved subject. Makes my head hurt just thinking about all of it that I know nothing about. Suffice to say, there is a lot to it. Usually a lot more than we realize.

I would like to know whats in it that can turn everyday #2 diesel in to “ultra” premium diesel.

I don't know where your getting your info, but you may be thinking of Alcohol, and only 1 product of power service contains it called 911. Alcohol is the "bad" additive in any product. I have been running power service for a long time, and love it. Now that i sell it, and know the "behind the scenes" part of it thier testing is far superior than that of any other product out there. They actually use walmart trucking as thier test bed. I am a full believer in research and like to know what i'm paying for, not just cause its cool or someone told someone who told someone that its the best. Do the research yourself, in this economy $$$ matters..

Go here Power Service Products, diesel fuel additives, prevent gelling, clean injectors, disperse water, boost cetane, reduce emissions, improve fuel economy

Here's a link to the MSDS for Diesel Kleen:

http://dev.powerservice.com/msds/pdf/dfs140_msds.pdf

Mostly petroleum distillates with alot of the "enes"-type toxins. Pretty much hazardous solvents and chemicals. I wouldn't go near the stuff, much less put it in my fuel tank.

um what do you think diesel is made of? LOL

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LMAO your not susposed to drink the stuff or bathe in it- lmao. Unless your giving it to Herbie and he is spitting out back at you. To say that you woldnt go near it is kind of extreme..someone must have told you its bad stuff..and you believed them! Becareful fueling, you may get some on your hands and die! LOL

Read more: https://www.dieselbombers.com/altern...#ixzz0d72jkerz

Napthalene is about the worst stuff in diesel and it's only really dangerous when inhaled for extended periods of time:

http://www.martineagle.com/MSDS/CitgoDiesel.pdf

Suffice it to say, I like to know what's in the stuff I use, whether I burn it in an engine or bathe in it. It helps to really understand what it does alot better than the marketing swill oil companies and people like the makers of PS would have you believe.

Use it all you like, different strokes for different folks. I'm just saying it's a crap product, and not because of anything somebody "said." Like YOU said on here.

Maybe some people just aren't smart enough to be all that concerned about it. :w2:
Pretty much says it all. :bat:

I don't know if PS is good or bad and won't even get into that myself but just so everybody reading this is aware. The MSDS sheet isn't a complete list of ingredients in any product. It only contains a list of ingredients that the government has deemed as potentially harmful or toxic to the environment and how to treat exposure to or hazardous cleanup of those ingredients.

I've seen many times when guy's think they can brew they're own home brew batch based off what's listed on these sheets.

Below is a few things found in Power Service but noticed that have made big changes to there MSDS thus hiding info of whats in there product:

Vinyl acetate: Is an industrial chemical that is produced in large amounts in the United States. It is a clear, colorless liquid with a sweet, fruity smell. It is very flammable and may be ignited by heat, sparks, or flames.

Vinyl acetate is used to make other industrial chemicals. These chemicals are used mainly to make glues for the packaging and building industries. They are also used to make paints, textiles, and paper.

Ethylbenzene: The greatest use — more than 99 percent — of ethylbenzene is to make styrene, another organic liquid used as a building block for many plastics. It is also used as a solvent for coatings, and in the making of rubber and plastic wrap.

Napthalene: Naphthalene's most familiar use is as a household fumigant, such as in mothballs.

Naphtha: A fast drying solvent replaces paint thinners to accelerate drying time of oil-based paints, enamel and varnish.

Maybe good cleaning agent, but I wouldn't want it running through my pumps and injectors. :td:

hmm after 8 yrs. no problems. but none of that stuff is harmful to your vehicle...just dont huff it.

Sorry brothers, i hope i have not caused any animosity. it's just not me. I have always wanted viable reasons for things, not excuses. :igive: Now if i can get our president.....nevermind. :scare2: :pm:

As long as everybody get's along and doesn't turn it personal this is what were here for. Were not here to pretend we know it all but to have discussions like this so we can all learn it all from each other. Doesn't matter who's right or even if there is a right or wrong answer in the end as long as we all learn somethin from it.

If there was only one right kind of additive that worked for every truck there wouldn't be the thousands on the market that there is. I hope nobody is ever scared to speak up because they don't want to step on toes or piss somebody off because if they are then we have all missed some new insight.