now the only thing about using the gas grill tank is its not legal. the reason is because its not D.O.T. aproved

That too, but i would be less concerned about the tank blowing up than i would the wrong type of hose!

If you use a BBQ tank i would try to keep that sucker hidden for sure, the smokies probably wont like to see that...

ok, correct if i am wrong here, cause its possible i am. but im pretty sure that the tanks you see on campers and RVs are grill tanks and as long as they are properly secured and regulated they are fine... again, i could be very wrong but i know around here at least thats what people are driving around with on their campers

they have them around hear but that is not on a motorized vehicle. any type of fuel for motorized vehicle must be stored in a D.O.T. approved tank. you can transport a bbq tank in your truck just as long as its not hooked up. for my tank im useing a 8 gallon forklift D.O.T. approved tank

Im sure their may be ways to get away with it depending on the local laws, but 99.9999% of the time if they find a BBQ tank or any other non DOT approved tank hooked up to your truck you will get a ticket.

Their is a reason you pay so much for a 'proper' tank, that little DOT stamp/sticker is worth alot! :D

yep thats a true statement, for my water/meth setup i bought a polyurathane 7 gallon storage tank and they said that would be fine but water/meth is not flamable

water meth will add timing, so will a lot of programmers and so will propane. Be careful. I would like to put it in my intake horn. I worry about how much psi would be needed to compete with turbo boost.

Ideally I would like to get mine set up to turn on at about 5psi and off about 12psi so I don't have too much timing + high boost, thereby reducing pressure and saving the headgasket. I could then have water injection come on starting at about 10 psi and increasing to 25-30psi.

I got all the parts, just trying to find out how to put it all together as i have a BHAF and would like to have an enclosed filter box to tap for propane line so that i don't have anything exposed/unfiltered.

i did the propain on my truck. all i have to say what a waist of time and money:ph: ofcoarse it throws you back in your seat when you hit the go button but it aint worth it unless your racing

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but i cant say enough about the water/meth though thats the best upgrade yet

what if you were to turn down your flow and run it more for mileage than performance? i turned mine down to like 2psi when i started doing alot of outa state jobs and i get roughly 75-100 miles more a tank. so like 2 1/2 - 3mpg better, not bad when the whole thing costs $150 and another $9 to refill the tank...

Well, i was watching 4 wheel off road adventures and they had a thing on the diesel power top truck challenge. They showed the mpg test and there was a single cab duramax with propane and it got i think 43 mpg, i know it was over 40. The rest of the trucks were in the high teens or low 20s. I had no idea you could actually get the mileage that high, but they do a pretty good test of it

propane
 

If I might chime in- propane does not burn until around 1400 degrees + - and diesel is in the 400-500 degree range. In effect- the diesel burns the propane. What the propane does is burn slower (higher octane -116) and longer so it burns the rest of the unburned diesel on some tests upwards of 90% efficiency. It also is a fuel (of course!) and it provides carbon (hydrocarbon) that we need for the power. So it helps burn the unburned diesel- raises octane - is cheaper than diesel (yes! the amount of propane I use is 15 dollars for every 1000 miles!) My mileage increase end result is 24-25.2 mpg on interstate at the speed limit up from 18-19 natural diesel only. Here is the interesting part- my self designed system is variable- flow (more at higher rpm's and load) and I use a hobbs switch set at 1 pound! The reason is that I use mine for mileage and at 65 mph on highway I am running 3 lbs boost flat ground cruise control. I want the propane on at cruise. While towing- my truck rarely downshifts out of overdrive with propane on 16000 lb fifth wheel. I also use a two selenoid system to save propane in regulator so that on letoff (downhill or braking) the propane is off but saved. My system really works- and the power amazes me. Remember I had hemi cars (426 not 5.7) and am hard to impress. I can sell the kit complete for (pm me) but it is lower priced. Also you do not want to turn your propane on until 170 degree water temperature to prevent pinging. Other than that- no problems and street racing is fun- I've surprised a lot of people.:tu:

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Also propane bottles are usually at 80lbs pressure so would work in intake manifold on engine but would be better pre-turbo to not only mix it up but there is no boost in that tube between the air filter and turbo. All things work better when better atomised -diesel and methanol included. That is why the trend will be with water methanol injection to go to a higher pressure pump - some racers use 600+ lbs of pressure pumps. All in the interest of vaporization.

Good info...some pics would be great.

This is what I want to know. Your thread and input has been very informative.
Thanks
Dave Bybee

Plus one!:jump:

16MPG :) 98 dually 20ft gooseneck 4 horses 70 MPH for 4 hrs

:jump: i've been lookin for some all around info on propane injection an you my friend have just saved me alotta time searchin. :humm: not many guys i know have ventured into the lp era of diesel... but then again im not many guys :w2: :tttt: :c: :pca1:

I might have some add-ons on using propane in a diesel:

-propane does not mix very well with air, so it has to be added as soon as possible to get a good air-propane mixture.

-propane won't ignite itself as long as Diesel is injected and autoignites itself. The minimum ignition temperature of propane in air is 842°F. Diesel itself ignites at 494° F. This makes the use of propane in a diesel possible.
So when the Diesel(15-25 octane) ignites it raises the temperature to a level the propane(110 octane) gets ignited.

BUT:
-the fuels start to compete for the oxygen left in the combustion chamber.
And propane does burn a lot faster(!) leaving a lot of unburned diesel in the chamber.
Propane is already in a gaseous form- this is the reason to burn a lot quicker than diesel.

The unburned diesel will be regnited again from the propane flame front causing a delay and a second flamefront. This is what we call detonation...

Sure, propane works- its just a question of proper adjustment and release timing.

Having all the written stuff above in mind it seems to be smarter to add more diesel first.


So what is propane good for:
- as a use as a moderate power adder
- as an increase when the powerlimit with conventional methods is already reached

How much more efficiency will the propane add to the burning of diesel? I have been thinking about a systems that would inject propane pre turbo and turn on at 3-5 psi and off at 10 psi so that it would only be used for economy instead of high HP (bigger injectors and power box to take care of that)

Just looking to make the engine more efficient at low-mid range power level.

this is the reason you should put it pre-turbo as shown in the pictures.:tu:

Zero. It will actually reduce diesel efficiency because of the two fuels and flame fronts competing for oxygen.

There is actually no actual mileage or money savings with propane, its just a substitution fuel. The small difference in the cost per gallon of propane and diesel will take years to recover the cost of the propane system.

It seems hard to believe that it would net a zero improvement at lower power levels because vapor (propane) is smaller than droplets (diesel) and the faster flame front of propane would lead to a more complete burn (assuming there is enough oxygen). At higher power levels I can see your point that there would be less air available to do a complete burn. But I do not have a good grasp on dueling flame fronts.

Disclaimer:I am not an engineer.

The "catalyst" effect doesn't actually happen. Its just a common scam marketing technique.

The lack of improvement is very simple to explain:

Propane is still a fuel and fuel alone is useless.
Please have in mind that diesel needs to run at least at a 20:1 mixture of air to run smokeless. That means during low and mid power you only have a small amount of air supply available because your turbo does not deliver excess air. That will appear with full boost.
As a reason of that most propane systems are activated with a boost pressure switch to ensure the adequate supply of enough air to burn the diesel+the added propane.
Injection is very similar to the Diesel nitrous systems. But in this case nitrous is much safer than propane systems. Adding nitrous in a diesel does not lead to detonation, It is able only to kill the flame in the diesel chamber if adding to much nitrous. you can see some smoking trucks at the quarter mile, they stop smoking as soon as nitrous is injected.
Some commercial systems go a step further, they add propane only under specific load conditions to ensure safe running conditions. The problem with propane is known, but kept silent.

Hmm.... Interesting!

So, does adding nitrous to a diesel work the same as it does in a gasser? (In a gasser, basically nitrous adds a lot of 'available' oxygen inside the combustion chamber. This is accompanied by the addition of a lot more fuel! Together, this extra fuel and oxygen creates a serious increase in power!!)
I always thought that adding nitrous to a diesel allowed the 'extra' fuel being dumped in there by large injectors to have some more air to burn and make more power. It is basically like increasing turbo boost, isn't it? (Of course, to be able to use it you have to already have larger injectors spraying more fuel in there!)

So what else is there to know about propane? Or should I say: Let's here it all!!
Dan

Off topic: Adding nitrous in a diesel is way better than in gasser. There will be no risk of detonation!
No, it's is way better better than increasing turbo boost! It does also decrease intake temperatures like an extra intercooler, it also decreases as a result of that EGT's.
It does increase simply allow the engine to burn more fuel more safely.

Just have in mind that nitrous injetors have be 30% bigger to the 30% more air demand of diesel engines compared with a gasser.
Off topic off!

As far as I know do MSD and Bully dog offer commercial propane systems for Diesels.
Due to the need of a lot of combustion air I would install always a full throttle switch and and a boost pressure switch in combination with an electromagnetic valve to prevent the activation of propane during low boost. Do not forget it is still a high flammable gas!:w2:

There are a few commercially available propane systems out there. I think most of them are set up to not come on until at least 5 psi of boost is made.

I am only interested in propane for increasing mileage as I don't care about having more power (or need it!).

Oh, and as far as low boost is concerned: I heard it explained like this. Basically you have a normally aspirated engine before the turbo spools and starts making boost. I think that sums it up quite nicely!!

Here are some interesting facts to me at least- propane works very well in small doses to increase mileage. I make a variable flow VACUUM referenced, propane kit that I use mainly for mileage improvement. My Mega went from 18-19 mpg's to 25.2 on the interstate running propane running light. Hand calculated so extremely accurate and was there for 3 tank fulls traveling to Illinois. The power brings a smile to my face - even wife notices difference when we are out of propane. Noticeably better throttle response, less smoke, and more fun to drive. I use the kit to turn on after the truck is over 170 degrees water temp. and all is well. My 20 lb test propane bottles last 600 - 800 miles and I have my propane set so that it comes on at 1 lb of boost! I wanted it to help when cruising too, not just on hills. Diesel ignites at 437 degrees F. Propane does not ignite until 1004 degrees F. What propane does is causes turbulence in the cylinder to help spread the approaching diesel flame front more throughout the cylinder AND since propane is a fuel too it gets used to propell the vehicle. So the diesel ignites the propane - which resists detonation in the cylinder as its octane is 112 - and once the diesel is introduced and burns, starting at 437 deg F, and ending at 3729 dgrees F, it ignites the propane at 1004 degrees F. Propane is one of the most cost effective mileage and power increasers, my 20 lb bottles cost 65 cents per pound to fill, I get minimum of 600 miles per bottle, which is 3 cents per mile for the propane. The diesel on the other hand is $3.09 per gallon and at my best mileage of 25.2 miles per gallon is 12.26 cents per mile. So in effect - use the propane - it is a cheaper fuel, adds sig power (80 to 100 horses) , pollutes less per mile, cause your using less diesel to do the same work, supposedly reduces oil contamination, (I can't verify that mine is always black and have never had it tested), and it is cool to tell others you use propane. It is an easy install too. Everyone that has seen my kit wants one but i'm too busy right now working on my house to make some up but will soon. PS I will use a power speed calculator and tell you my rear wheel horsepower increase Soon!

Thats false economy due to fuel substitution. Actual economy (as in BTU's consumed) didn't change.


842*f.

Propane autoignites long before that, especially at boost.
Diesel's autoignition temperature of 494°F means the air must be at least that hot just for the engine to start. Since Cummins can start well below freezing without an external heat source, that means at warm ambient temperatures the air is well above 494°F, far higher with boost.

:pca1:

Here is the chart I got the temperatures from: Propane Facts & Comparison Charts The purpose of the temps listing was to show that Diesel ignites before the propane ignites, even though the propane is already in the chamber. Of course propane is a fuel, and of course no matter which fuel you use- it takes the same btu's (work) to do the same job. By replacing more expensive diesel fuel with cleaner burning propane AND more power - and still costing less overall than diesel to travel per mile - win-win. The propane also since it causes turbulence in the cylinder allows the diesel that is then injected to burn more completely, especially since the propane burns slower and longer time than diesel - so that the efficiency ratio goes up. Same distance travelled - same btu's required - but more power when needed and lower cost. Forced I enjoy your thread answers - but have you ever used propane? It works great for mileage.

OK I have read every thing on this thread! Very vague in some posts. My question is do any of you have problems with climate changes? Reason Why I asked is that a few people that I know in Utah have used the LPG, and or CNG and have nothing but problems. They say that the climate in Utah is so extreme in temperature changes that it does not work correctly? I do no know how or why, it is just what I have heard. One of my main sources is G&R Diesel Repair in Draper Utah. I do know for a fact that in the Banks Sidewinder Diesel they use LPG with Nos and diesel. The way banks has theirs set up is that the Diesel is the Spark! that starts the burn LPG, Thats why they can claim low smoke! LPG and CNG are SPARK IGNITION Fuels. Not Compresion ignition like diesel. The use of terms like octane in a Cetaine powerplant only creates some confusion (Most of us know what is being said, so no offences). as far as it being a marketing ploy? I do not see a whole lot of commercials about it! I live in California CNG and LPG does well in the valley areas. I am not sure about other climates tho. Still a young Idea being used. More intensive study is required

up here in Wisconsin when its like 20 below zero somtimes we have problems running lpg because the coolent doesent get warm enough to evaporate the lp, so in the winter we doent even bother turning it on, we just used an lp setup from a forklift

If your regulator runs oil (its possible with right diaphram) or engine antifreeze it should stil be in vapor state - remember propane BOILS at minus 44degrees F! So just wait until truck is warmed up before turning on.

You missed factoring in the cost of the system and the fact it would take several years, if ever, to recoup the cost on fuel price per BTU alone.

That is false information.

No need. It has no benefit and it doesn't work at all on IDI engines (detonation).

You are right - propane is for people who have the blessing of a turbocharger - it does not help idi very much at all. But for the rest of us - WOW!

Yes the 20lb. propane tank is just a grill tank. I think we all pretty much have one or two extra's laying around, I use propane to cut with cause it's cheaper than acetalene and it burns a little hotter too I think. Why not just use regular fuel line? Good quality line is re-enforced and is a little more flexible than the welding gas line. The welding line will start cracking after a while when it's exposed to the weather too. Get the 1/4" barbed fittings and clamp them in the hose to be safe and go from there. I think it's a great idea, after a little more reading on the subject I'll probably give it a try !! All I need to buy is a rocker switch and the solenoid valve. THANKS :tu:

Uh, please tell me your not thinking of putting acetylene into your engine.

FYI, Acetylene produces the hottest flame known to man.

Just remember the propane comes out of the bottle at between 80 and 160 lbs pressure.

No Doc, I'm not That dumb !! (not yet anyway) I had been up all night, I think somehow my point was that I already had the propane gages. I'm not sure. :argh:

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You have me curious now Doc, do you know the burn temp of the two gas

Also, I sent "Propane Kits" a message and ask him if he'd give us a discount. I'll let everyone know as soon as he answers me. It says he has 10 more available, how many would want one from him?

I hope I didn't break any rules by asking him for the discount on our behalf as a whole. Did I?

The fellow on Ebay is willing to deal, but would like to know how many people would be interested in the valve. Anyone interested in the valve for less than 36 dollars? He didn't say how much less just less, I'll contact him Sunday.