PHP's 2001 F-250 Build. Finally!
 

I've spent so much time over the last 13 years helping to build and tune everyone else's truck, I figure it's probably time for me to get off my butt and put the screws ours. The build process on this truck is going to be a slow, methodical one as I want to quantify and qualify every modification we make as well as come to a determination as to what would be the best order in which to perform the modifications. Hopefully this will provide some very useful information to folks who are considering some modifications and are just not sure where to start. So, let's begin...

The Platform:

The truck we're building is a 2001 F-250, 2 WD, Single Cab Longbed. The truck had 234,000 miles when it was purchased and it currently has 241,00 miles. The only modification on the truck when we purchased it was a Homemade Tymar/6637 filter kit. Other than that, the truck was completely stock. The engine, turbo, HPOP and injectors are all original, and to the best of my knowledge the engine has newer been apart. A new transmission was installed at about 140,000. Incidentals such as water pump, hoses, alternator, or other minor things I'm sure have been replaces as needed, but have no bearing on this project so I'm not worried about them.

The Goal:

The goal is to see what gains are realized from different modifications, what order would be the most logical to perform them, and ultimately how much RELIABLE, STREETABLE power we can squeeze out of an average, reasonably high mileage vehicle before we experience any significant failure (ie. head gaskets, cracked pistons, or even a *GASP* windowed block). Each level of the build will be dynoed, datalogged, and documented and all information will be publicly available for reference and scrutiny. It is my hope to push 600+ streetable HP and do it for less than $7,500.

The Parts (Initially...):

• Injectors: Ryan Casserly and the rest of the guys at Full Force Diesel will be handling all the injector builds in each stage of the process. It is our plan to start with Stage 1 Singles (160cc/30%), graduate to Stage 2 Singles (160cc/100%), and then settle in on Stage 3 Singles (300cc/200%).

• Turbocharger: Bob Riley at DieselSite will be helping to handle turbo upgrades, from a minor upgrade to a WickedWheel replacement compressor wheel all the way up to a full turbo upgrade when we are ready. Possible choices are GT38 and GT42, but others may be considered in the meantime. Since compounds or parallel twins will undoubtedly put us over budget, we won't consider them unless it becomes absolutely necessary.

• HPOP: DieselSite will again be our choice for all the High Pressure Oil needs. The Adrenaline will be our first stop, and then either a Pulse or OverDrive setup as our demands increase.

• Exhaust: John Anderson at Little Power Shop has already provided us with a full Diamond Eye 4" Exhaust kit, though it hasn't yet been installed. We will be going with a standard Single Out setup due to the fact that our truck has a full top on it and stacks will not be able to be installed.

The Process:

We will first set a baseline for the truck with Dyno charts and Datalogs. The dyno we're using is a Mustang Dyno Eddy Current load dyno and we will be simulating loads of 7,000 Lbs. (approx. weight of vehicle alone) and 15,000 Lbs. (approx. weight of vehicle with an additional 8,000 Lb. load). We will monitor all pertinents such as MAP, EBP, EOT, EGT, ICP, IPR, SOI, and anything else we feel would be useful. All runs will be made at a stabilized operating temperature (minimum 165ºF for EOT) in order to help maintain data consistency.

All parts will be installed, tuned (if necessary) and tested. When we are comfortable with the configuration, we will then retest and datalog the vehicle. All subsequent performance tests will record the same parameters in the same fashion as the baseline tests. Once we feel we've exhausted the configuration, we'll move on to the next modification. If at any time we should find a deficiency in a particular system, we will resolve that issue before moving forward. For example, if there is a deficiency with the high pressure oil system, we will resolve that issue before moving up to a larger injector. If airflow becomes too big of an issue, then the turbocharger will be addressed.

The central idea is to consider how to possibly build in stages that make the most sense, both from a performance standpoint and a financial standpoint. I've considered the idea of simply installing a 300/200 injector and just detuning it for street use as this would give a person considerable headroom to "build into" down the road as time and finances permit. However, I can still detuned the setup at the end of this exercise and I feel that more usable data can be had by slowly building up with different stage injectors.

Anyway, the project (which technically has already started) officially starts today (11/14/2010) and goes until I top 600 HP or I pop the engine. I know there are a number of gamblers out there, so feel free to pick which you think will come first... Top or Pop. Keep in mind that this is a 240K mile engine and I have ABSOLUTELY NO IDEA what condition it's in, so don't get all excited if it lets go at 575, 500, or even 450 HP. That's just the way it goes.

The Rules:

I ask that we please keep this thread clear of debris and not take up space with "Hey... what's the status?" or "Did you break it yet?" questions. I'll be happy to respond to legitimate questions about the testing process, the parts used, or the POSTED results. Anything else will pretty much be ignored.

All parts used will be, or have been, purchased. I am not expecting any handouts and I will keep track of all purchases to not only see if I'm able to meet my goal of 600 HP for $7,500, but also how much each modification costs and how much power can be made for the current amount invested.

I have no plan to incorporate Nitrous, Propane, or Methanol into this project, although I will be considering Water injection only as an exhaust temperature stabilizer. However, I'd rather avoid such consumables if at all possible.

In the event of any significant failure, the test will conclude and all final results will be posted. I have another block to work with, but that will be used for a much more serious build and would not fit the parameters of this test.

I think that's pretty much it. From here on out, I'll post up Dyno Sheets and Datalogs as time permits.

Stay Tuned... :c:

Bill... 12:47...

Thats about 3am your time? Man you have got to sleep sometimes!:tu:

Sounds like a great plan and I look foward to the information!


I'm going to sticky this!!!

Ah... sleep is for people who have nothing better to do. :c:

I am in about the same boat, cant wait to see what the injectors do.

Okay folks... It looks like we just upped the ante.

http://www.phptune.com/images/php_tr...ction_hole.jpg

Yes folks, those are rod bolts which means that the engine is definitely a PMR engine. Not only do we have to contend with head gaskets, we also have to contend with bottom end reliability. This really doesn't change anything and I'm still going to shoot for 600 HP, it just means that tuning is going to be über critical. Of course, given this new information I will be making the decision to install head studs before stepping past Stage 1 injectors. This will eliminate one area concern and because it can be done without compromising the original head seal, I feel that it doesn't completely invalidate the test.

I will be doing the studs after I test the Stage 1's. I will most likely wait on the fuel system until I can get the Stage 2's installed so I can dyno before and after the fuel system installation. I'll also probably hold the turbo mods until Stage 2's so we can test different configurations.

Once through the Stage 2 injectors, and assuming that the HPOP makes it that far, we'll upgrade the HP oil system and the turbo. This is, of course, assuming the rods haven't scattered yet. I can't see any reason why we can't hit 500 HP on PMRs, and if we make the 600 HP mark then that would be really cool. If not, then oh well.

Like I said, it's gonna be interesting! :D

now that ive read the entire thread i do have a question regarding the use of the truck. r u just using it for dyno pulls or is it allso being driven on the street on a regular basis. i realize that it being street driven wouldnt change much (so long as u keep an eye on everything) but i would be very interested to hear how it handled on the street.

Thanks
Jeremy

Riddick,

I drive my truck just about every day. I don't drag race (although I'm not averse to taking a spin down the 1320) or sled pull (not a chance here... it's 2WD truck) so my main concern is how the vehicle handles on a day to day basis. The goal, besides hitting 600 HP, is that the Mrs. can drive it without any problem. If I can achieve that, then I'm happy. :choochoo:

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Hey all...

I'm really sorry that it has taken this long to make any headway on this project. Since the original posts, we've been tied up with several other projects which have resulted in some delays. However, we're starting to make headway again and I'm really quite excited with where we're at with the build. Just where are we at? Read on... :D

At this point, I've not yet installed the Cylinder Pressure testing equipment but expect to have that up and running in the next week. Meanwhile, we've completed the stock dyno runs and datalogs and also the Stage 1 dyno runs and datalogs. The results were better than I could have possibly expected, especially considering that the block, turbo, and HPOP are all still completely stock.

The following links are to the compiled datalogs and associated dyno runs. The three test completed so far were:

1) Stock Injectors, Stock Power Level

2) Stock Injectors, Extreme Power Level

3) Stage 1 Injectors, Extreme Power Level

The first two files are about what I'd expect from a 200K+ miles motor with stock injectors. However, what I found with the third set of runs with the Stage 1's surprised me a little bit. I tried a couple small changes between a few sets of runs so the 3 runs in the Stage 1 files are slightly different. The changes were subtle and done in a manner to see which produced not only the best peak power curve, but also the broadest and smoothest curves. The results are very clear and I've included some comments as well.

On run #1, I had set the ICP to 2900 PSI and went with a slightly higher injection pulsewidth of 4.00 ms. This will usually provide a broader torque curve and a lower peak power. However, in this case the results showed the highest power output of the three runs, peaking at 399 HP @ 2560 RPM and 926 Ft. Lbs. @ 2124 RPM. Power was above 350 HP from 2130 RPM to 3276 RPM and above 300 HP from 1917 RPM to 3490 RPM (just after the point where I let off the throttle). While ICP remained steady, the IPR D/C was a bit higher do the wider injection pulsewidth. However, it never climbed above 50% for the entire run which indicates to me that (1) we were not floating the poppets on the injectors and (2) we have a pretty solid working HPOP.

On run #2, I raised the ICP to 3200 PSI and dropped the injection pulsewidth down to 3.60 ms. My peak power dropped to 393 HP @ 2500 RPM and my torque dropped to 891 Ft. Lbs. @ 2225 PRM. Like run #1, power was above 350 HP from 2115 RPM to 3268 RPM and above 300 HP from 1967 RPM to 3531 RPM (slight higher RPM range, but similar width). With the narrower pulsewidth we did see a noticeable drop in IPR D/C, especially at upper RPMs. This helps to confirm some suspicions I have about the relationships between wide pulsewidths and ICP/IPR stability.

On run #3, I dropped the ICP to 3150 PSI and raised the injection pulsewidth to 3.80 ms. My peak power was 395 HP @ 2541 RPM and my torque was 898 Ft. Lbs. @ 2160 PRM. Power was above 350 HP from 2081 RPM to 3280 RPM (about 50 PRM wider) and above 300 HP from 1958 RPM to 3492 RPM (where the run stopped recording at 318 HP). IPR D/C stayed well below 50% (below 45% above 3000 RPM) and this was also, by far, the smoothest run of the three.

A few other things to note:

1) The boost (MAP) values are pretty useless, given the fact that despite the MAP sensor being a "3 Bar" range sensor, 1 Bar of the sensor is wasted on vacuum so the output is limited to only about 28 PSI. Combined with some other internal restrictions and adjustment for Baro sensor offset in the calibrations, this is further reduced to about 24 PSI. We will be soon adding a 5 Bar map sensor to allow for a more accurate boost reading as well as being able to accurately correct fueling based on boost values.

2) The SOI timing curve peaked at about 30º BTC at 3600 RPM. If we'd have pushed to 4000, it may have seen 32º to 34º based on the advance rate of about 1º per 125 RPM. Once we're able to test the cylinder pressures, we'll experiment with more aggressive curves to see just how significant the effect is by advancing SOI timing. I'm sure the answer is pretty obvious, as many PMR engines have already experienced, but it would be interesting to have some cold, hard facts to substantiate the theories. Also, keep in mind that elevated ICP not only has a modest effect on SOI, but it also has a pretty significant effect on the combustion point and burn rate of the fuel which can also be responsible for excessive cylinder pressures and ultimately lead to engine failures.

Given the nature of the test vehicle, I don't think I could have asked for a better set of runs. Based on the results so far, I'd say that my favorite run was configuration #1 due to the fact that we were able to make solid power with ICP pressures below 3000 PSI. There's a long standing argument that you have to have aggressive ICP pressures to make any power, and to some degree that's probably an accurate statement. However, the problem still centers around the limitations of the HEUI injectors and higher ICP may not always be the best solution, especially when getting into injectors with larger nozzles. Too much fuel too fast could cause extremely high cylinder pressures, and we'll see just how accurate that is once the Stage 2's are installed and the cylinder pressures are logged.

At this point, I've got a few minor modifications to complete before the step to Stage 2. First, I have the exhaust system, Wicked Wheel, and CP testing equipment to install and then we'll do another quick set of runs just to see what's what. After that, the Stage 2's go in and then we'll test the HPOP and fuel systems to see just where any deficiencies occur. I'm suspecting that both systems will need to be upgraded before we begin to push the envelope on those injectors. Following that, head studs, turbo, and 300cc-350cc injectors, which should push me to the 600 HP mark on a stock-blocked PMR engine. The next 2 months will be interesting!

Enjoy! :D

Great post Bill!!!

Seems to go against what a few band wagon guys try to pound in... If your not running 4000psi your not making power.

Looking foward to more updates!

The thing is this... in general, raising ICP often works to make more power. Just look at the 6.0L which runs closer to 4000 PSI and are capable of making well over 400 HP on stock injectors. The difference is that the 6.0L injectors use a spool valve to control oil flow instead of the poppet valve used by the 7.3L. As ICP increases, the poppets in the 7.3L injectors (presumably) start to float and have difficulty in properly sealing off both the inlet port (when off) and the discharge port (when active). This is compounded by the fact that the IDM's method of "peak and hold" causes the magnetic force to diminish after about 3 ms and often does not provide adequate holding force for the poppet which basically results in an oil leak through the injectors. Higher voltage IDMs help reduce this problem in the open position and stiffer springs help with the closed position, but it's a balancing act at best to achieve the right combination.

Unfortunately, this is the situation we find ourselves in and we have to deal with it the best we can. :D

Bill this makes me feel good after all the guys talking smack to me on facebook, just goes to show 400 hp on stock injectors is possable, thanks, also look up serial # of block u might have nice connecting rods for the high power mark:scare2:

The 400 HP number IS NOT on stock injectors and IS NOT possible with stock injectors.

The picture Bill posted (post #5) IS a picture of powdered metal rods in that engine.

I have a towing related question. Once everything is said and done. How well will the truck tow? ie. 15,000 lbs up a 10% grade for 5 miles? Or would this just crank up the egt's so high that you would have to pull over and let it cool down? The reason I ask this is, currently I have an e99 7.3 powerstroke with 139,000 miles. And eventually I would like to build it up a little bit. But if I do do this, I still want to be able to use my truck as a truck. Not just a racecar.
Thanks,
Geoff

bill new york bombers r slow to answer maybe u can help, if i punch out a 7.3 30 over, can i use stock crank and cam, they make kits at navistar but dont have crank and cam in it

There is no need to change anything except pistons if your cylinders are worn enough to warrant a .030" overbore. There is no performance gain from "punching out" cylinders. On an eight cylinder engine you will gain 6 cubic inches with a .030" overbore, but no performance.

Overboring an engine serves no purpose but to clean up cylinder wall wear and taper problems.

thanks for the info, in trying to build a motor stoker like a 383 stoker out of a 7.3 so it will be a stroked stoker lol any ideas

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there is a guy that builds 7.3 that crank 700 hp with just a turbo no programming but i got a price for 17,000 for motor and tranny, i want to do it myself and build a power plant for my truck, please help with any teck and ideas if all this is possible, i want to keep it a road worthy rig

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another teck question i flashed my computer and put new program, can i use a tony wildman tuner on top of that or the 3 way switch i have already, i guess its called stacking programs but wow it def, moves the truck ?

See replies in red.

Probably shouldn't muck up Bill's thread with this stuff anymore.

At the level I'm at now, I can pull a 14' Trailer and vehicle (about 10K combined) up a 5% grade at 70 MPH running around 1150-1200º EGTs. If I turned the tune down a bit, I could probably pull a bit harder, but I just watch EGTs and roll with it.

I don't use my truck as a racecar, other then maybe stoplight to stoplight. It is a daily driver and daily worker, just like 99.9% of the people out in the real world. I leave the racing stuff to guys like Mike Ontiveros. :rocking: I'm looking for inexpensive, reliable STREET power.

Take care.

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I don't doubt that a 700 HP engine could be built for $17K. I have serious doubts that it could be done with "just a turbo". That's one heck of an expensive turbo. :humm:

In order to achieve 700 HP, you'd need AT LEAST:

350-400cc injectors - $2800
Big single or (more likely) compound turbos - $2500 - $3500
Hypermax (or similar) connecting rods - $2600
Custom ground cam - $800
Head Studs - $500
Fire Rings - (Machine Shop labor)
Main girdle - $2000
Twin HPOP - $2600
Fuel System - $600
Dyno Tuning to make everything run correctly $1000

With no other machining or installation charges, that comes to around $16,400. By the time you add all the gaskets, bearings, and other incidentals, you'll probably be close to $18,000.

Anything less will probably leave you with parts scattered all over the street. Well, maybe your tranny wouldn't survive the build... but that's another story.

We're pushing it trying to achieve 600 HP (really pushing since ours is a PMR engine), but it's more out of morbid curiosity that we've selected the parameters for our build. For 600 HP I'd normally recommend a minimum of forged rods, even if they're just factory.

Take care.

Ok. Thanks for the input on that. In the next few months I'll be contacting you for more information on what parts you are using on your build.

Keep up the good work Bill. Looking good so far

i am in this project and it is great to have u guys help, i have been taken by a tranny company already went threw 4 of them just getting ready to send the last back, this one blew reverse, tired of taken them in and out

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and haven u guys here will save me alot of heart ache, should i just get rid of everything and go with tony wild man 6 position and be done with it and some injectors and a larger turbo, this weeks project is changing out ring and pinion for more gear , going to 4.56

awnser in red :hellox:

i do have a question related to your goal here...like u said above turning will be the key to keeping the PMRs alive at these higher power levels...assuming you do make 500 or 600 or whatever you end up making will you start selling these tunes for guys like me that have the PMRs or would it be something that would be to potentially harmful to the engine that you wouldnt want to

i posted cause i want to know the diff y spend the money, what kind of power can i make with your stuff bill, vers going with something else, there are alot actually to many to choose from

i'd choose bill just because he is great to deal with, i have his tunes on my truck now that has the basic mods, and i'll be going right back to him after my rebuild, i have no complaints what so ever about his tuning

Stock injectors? You'll end up with the same amount of maximum power as anybody else is able to come up with be it a "custom tuner", Edge, Superchips, Diablosport, etc.


The way the truck drives, the way the transmission shifts, and the way the accelerator pedal feels will vary widely between all of the people/companies that do this.

hey hows the project going?

Any more info on your project?? Sounds interesting!!!:tu: