2004 6.0 rough start run rough
 

Hi, My name is Bryan,I just joined the site to try and diagnose a friends truck. I have gotten valuable information from this site in the past with my 1997 f450 and 2000 f350.

The truck is a 2004 6.0 f350. Ever since he had the oil changed and oil and fuel filters changed at jiffy lube he has been experiencing bad starts and rough running when started in the morning. Temperatures have been about 35-45 degrees F.He has been using his block heater plugged in over night that helps with the rough starts.It will still start rough when the block heater is used, just not as bad.No smoke.
With the motor at temperature it idles ok ,but at appx 2000 rpm it sounds choppy almost as though it is missing.
When I hooked his truck up I pulled codes p0113,p0275,p1102and p2199. I found a broken wire for the IAT sensor on the connector to the MAF. The four wires to the maf were reading intermittantly(as I touched them they would work/not). I replaced the MAF/IAT connector,and read no more of the codes above.
When he started the truck this morning(46F) without the block heater the truck ran just as bad as before.
When I scanned the truck today just one code came up p0278.
When I did a KOEoff I got p0565,p0566,p0567,p0568,p0569and p1536.

With KOEO the EGRVP is 1.38v , ICP voltage is.86 @idle ICP pressure is 579psi, IPR duty cycle is 23.44 @idle.FICM voltage is 49v battery is 12.59v with engine off 13.54v with engine on. The ICP voltage,EGRVP,andIPR duty cycle seem high to me, am I wrong?
This truck is bone stock with no aftermarket mods, The truck has had warranty work through ford years ago for the EGR cooler.The IAT2 pigtail looks as though it has been replaced.
I have an AE software kit but am still learning how to operate.
Any help or guidance would be appreciated.

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when I typed KOEO I meant KOER, sorry

first I can't believe someone would let jiffy lube touch their 6.0, that is bad news. One of the first things I would look at is to see if it has a factory oil filter cap on it, the filters that come with their own cap tend to be too short and don't completely close off the drain back valve at the bottom of the filter housing, this can cause low oil pressure, low oil flow, starve the HPOP, hard starting, engine damage.

yeah I can't believe he took it to jiffy as well. The first thing I asked him when he told me is If they pu in the right oil. I had another friend who let jiffy service his truck and his turbo stopped working,he took it to ford under the 100000 mile warranty they did oil anylasis and said wrong oil stupid. They had put in straight 30w.His truck was fine after that. But my friend did show me his recipt that shows they used rotella 15-40 (that my friend supplied and a wix fuel filter, 2 filters) I dont know if wix kit comes with a new cap or not, but i,ll ask my friend if he remembers the kit having a cap.thanks

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Come to think of it I dont think my friend supplied the oil filter. You might be on to something.Thanks.

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well, I checked the oil filter housing, and it is stock. I checked the oil filter that jiffy lube installed and according to the invoice is a fram # ch9549. The filter is not a fram and says made in korea. I measured that filter to a new fram and found the fram filter is .350 taller and .500 wider. That may explain the problem this truck has been having. I'll know within the next few days if it worked, I figure it will take some time to purge the air out of the oil system.
My question right now is, The oil in the filter canister did not drain down when I removed the filter. It is my understanding that when the filter is removed that the drain valve opens to drain the oil in the resivoir down to the crankcase to be changed,Thae oil did not drain down.Is it possible for this valve to have been damaged by using a "shorter" oil filter? and is this valve serviceable thruogh the top of the canister?

that is odd, normally when it breaks it leaks down all the time, yes it is serviceable, it is a common part at the dealerships. The Fram filter like the Ford filter should be Made In Germany.

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it aso might be possible they used a whole oil cooler off a van, they don't have the drain plug because the filter is below the motor but they use the same basic cooler but the dainback is plugged .

The fram filter I purchased is made in USA,just got a call from owner he says it seems to run cleaner(less choppy). I'll know in a couple of days.
the stem on the oil filter housing is spring loaded, It would make sense that the oil dose'nt drain down due to it not having that valve, but woud'nt it not have the symptom of the oil draining down each night?
I thank you for the information that you have given it really helped.
I'll post in a couple of days to let you know . Thanks again.
Bryan

That spring loaded plunger at top o the "tower" is actually a bypass for when the oil is thicker or when there is a pressure differential of greater then /10lbs??/ it makes sure the engine isn't starved of oil.
You are right about if it plugged up it wouldn't have the symptoms of the oil draining back. did you see the drainback valve in the bottom of the filter housing?
http://www.powerstroke.org/forum/att...m-dscf2783.jpg
this is what it looks like, all you see from the top is the black button.

Thanks for the reply,I did not see the valve because I did'nt remove the oil from the canister when i put the new filter in.I,m just looking to see if the filter was indeed the problem, if it fixes it I,ll change oil w new filter. When I do that ill remove the oil to see if its a valve or a plug.
The owner called me last night, after the truck sat for 5 hours he started it and it started nicely(previously it would have given him problems with that amount of time).
The owner also called me this morning , and said it had a slight rough start, but much much better than it had been.
How much time does it take to purge air from injectors HPOP, etc?

it normally can be purged in about 20 miles, but it help if you romp on it a couple times to realy get the flow up to help purge it.

Well truck started up on sunday morning running rough,problem is still there.
today I wanted to see/hear it on first startup but owner fired it up for couple of minutes before I got there. I hooked up computer,pulled all the sensors that I wanted to watch, and I cycled the ignition switch on until I heard fuel pump shut off. coolant temp was 68F. I did that about 8 times and the truck started up ok. The owner was surprised that It ran decent, he thought it would still be running bad as it usually takes 10/15 minutes to clear up. As I accelerated a little I felt it missing pretty bad but after a few minutes it cleared up at idle, but still misses above 1800 rpm,although much less than when it is cold.
Tomorrow I,m going to go hear it start and I though of cycling the fuel pump/ignition switch the same. If it starts up ok is it possible there is a fuel filter issue installation(jiffy lube) possibly aerating the fuel or sucking air,or maybe a "sticktion" issue. Truck has not been reflashed.
He is running rotella15/40 and wix fuel filters.
Problem started day after visit to jiffy lube 4 months ago,truck has been acting like this daily.

could be a stiction issue, normally after it hits 140 deg it will run fine. I would pull the fuel filters and make sure everything is kosher with them, also make sure th frame mounted filter has the membrane around it for the water seperation part of the filter.

Is this the first oil change since he purchased the truck, or just the first one at Jiffy lube? If it is the first one since he got the truck, it is quite possible that the previous owner was using an oil additive to combat stiction issues, and changing out the oil without oil additive has caused the problem to re-surface.

Later,

Keith

he is original owner,always takes his truck to a quick lube(jiffy etc).He has run cetane additive for the fuel and oil additive although I,m not sure which one.
Regarding the fuel filter, I had read in a forum that the aftermarket filters do not have a weep hole to purge air from the fuel filter canister, and you end up with half air and half fuel(only half of the filter gets used). Also perhaps, if the o ring was not lubricated or the lid not tight, or a cracked lid or housing may cause a bleed down or aeration problem.

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Okay, I just spoke with the owner. I got called in to work this morning so I was'nt there . He cycled the ignition switch 10 times each time waiting until the fuel pump cycled and shut of(koeo). When he started it it ran fine. Three minutes at idle it started to run bad. He shut it down and went inside to grab a coffee. When he came out he cycled the ignition 4 times and it started right up clean and he drove it to where he needed to go.It was cold this morning,and the fact that he was able to get the truck drivable simply by cycling the ignition switch is huge ,I think that we are on the right track.

He would really benifit from 2 bottles of RevX in the oil and Ford Motorcraft fuel filter. would straighten him right out.

I,m putting on motorcraft fuel filters tomorrow. I inspected the top fuel bowl cap for leaks and cleaned the oring mating surface on the fuel bowl(it had orange residue from old oring).
I noticed the wix upper fuel filter has that bogus metal crimp for the pleat. What a joke.That is the only part of the filter that is dirty, right between two of the three crimps on that pleat.
I live in ventura ca is there a local distributor that stocks Rev-x or would I have to order?
Thanks for all the replys bobfbigman.

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I,m putting on motorcraft fuel filters tomorrow. I inspected the top fuel bowl cap for leaks and cleaned the oring mating surface on the fuel bowl(it had orange residue from old oring).
I noticed the wix upper fuel filter has that bogus metal crimp for the pleat. What a joke.That is the only part of the filter that is dirty, right between two of the three crimps on that pleat.
I live in ventura ca is there a local distributor that stocks Rev-x or would I have to order?
Thanks for all the replys bobfbigman.

Ok,I purchased 2 bottles of Rev-X and installed it with fresh oil ( 5-40). Put in motorcraft fuel filters. The bottom filter had issues.
The filter had a horizontal line acoss the top third of the filter(completely clean above the line).
I had read a post here about the aftermarket filters not having a weep hole on the filter to purge air out of the canister. The Motorcraft filter did not have this weep hole.
Second, the filter installed on the truck appears to be the wrong filter. The motor craft has a snout with an oring that is installed facing the front of the truck(snout goes forward), the aftermarket filter has not snout,and no oring. It would apper to me that the aftermarket filter was not, could not, filter fuel. Thankfully the truck has the 2 micron up on top,but my question would be, Could the fuel pump have been damaged by the dirt or grit in that canister getting by it?
Needless to say the truck is still acting up in the morning when cold.
By cycling the ignition until hearing the fuel pump shut off 5-10 time truck starts right up.
I know normally electric fuel pumps just die, but has anyone had a fuel pump giving problems when cold?
I may have to invest in a fuel pressure test kit, just curious what you all think.
Thanks Bryan

If you have the tool to remove the fuel lines from the pump housing it would realy pay off to remove the whole pump/filter housing from the truck, might take 5 minutes, and give it a good cleaning. I am always on top of filter changes but I was suprised at the amount of crap tha gets left in there after filter has been changed and even after the water has been drained.

Bobfbigman, Thank for the reply. I plan on taking the hfcm down for a cleaning,would you happen to have a part number for the square o ring(with three or for winows in it)? Are there any other parts I may need to remove,clean, and replace the hfcm? and would you reccomend putting the upgraded brass drain valve for the hfcm?I think ford has a part number for that.
Should I open the regulator ang spring off the top canister to clean it and flush the tube all the way down?And would that oring need replaced if I opened it up?
Also, how long does it take for the rev-x additive to take effect?
And lastly tomorrow morning I plan on checking fuel pressure with a kit I had made up,what is the pressure range that I should be looking for KOEO,KOER,and engine running with load WOT.
Sorry for all the questions today,I really appreciate the time that you have taken to respond to my questions.
Thanks Bryan

I don't have the prt number for that oring on the side of the pump, I just reused mine and it was fine, on my old pump the drain bolt was so rusted and wouldn't come out so to drain water I would loosen up that housing to drain it, never had an issue withit leaking.
I wouldn't mess with the regulator housing unless you were putting the BLUE SPRING in it.
The fuel pressure should be around 60-65psi at idle and normal driving, the key is to keep it above 50 psi even at WOT. below that the plunger can actually hit the tip of the injector, it needs that fuel pressure to "cushion" the plunger, when you hear of people busting the tip off an injector it is most common that they had very low fuel pressure that caused it.
And yes get the brass plug, my ford dealer had the part number after I asked them to look it up, they listed it cheaper then the steel one.

More than likely the truck does not have the upgraded spring, Is the new blue spring reccomended?
How long does it take for rev-x to take "effect"
Thanks Bryan

Yes the Blue spring is highly recommended, ford came out with it because they found the original spring would loose tension and cause low fuel pressure. RevX should work almost immediately, I poured mine in right after I started it up cold and I wasn't even finished pouring in the second bottle and it straightened it right out.

Ok checked fuel pressure 42-46 psi KOEO 44-46 @idle , 48 once warmed up between 30-40 WOT.
Just picked up blue spring kit to see if it helps with fuel pressure,probably going after fuel pump if the spring kit doesnt raise fuel pressure enough.
Local ford dealer wanted 440 dollars for a new pump w hfcm canister they dont sell pump separately. ford dealer 20 miles away wants 221 dollars, fordparts.com wants 271,oreillys wants 269 for aftermarket.All these quotes include the hfcm complete. pretty wide range of prices, but looks like I;ll take a ride to save almost $200 bucks.
hopefully the spring kit will bring pressure up to an acceptable range.

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I installed the blue spring kit from ford.
KOEO 60psi
KOER 62psi
WOT couldnt get it below 56psi.
When I first started the truck it sounded smoother, but still had that funky vibration/miss @1800- 2300RPM. I went to 7-117 grabbed a cup of coffee,left truck running. When I came out @1800-2300RPM truck lost the vibration/miss.
It now runs like a striped ass ape.
When I R and R regulator spring I noticed two things, First the nylon bushing that hold the brass piece did not have an o-ring between it and the fuel filter housing.Two there was a piece of something behind the nylon/brass plug at the bottom of the fuel canister. It is plastic rectangular shaped,about 7/16 inch long and about 3/16 to1/8 diameter. I dont know where this could have come from or broken off of.
Now the big question is if it will still have the same bad/funky cold start. I will let you all know.
Also how do I post pictures on this forum? I would like to post a picture to see if you all can figure out where this plastic piece came from.
Thanks Bryan

I think the trick is to use Photobucket, and then send the pics here, I would post alot more pics too if I could figure it out, most of the ones I post are from other sites or Bing imiages and I just copy and paste the link. Was that plastic piece kind of keystone shaped? there is a small orangeish piece near the top of regulator housing that is the air bleed to remove air from the fuel bowl.
6.0 fuel regulator - Bing Images

No it is not thepiece that you describe. It is black,rectangular 7/16 inch long,3/16 to 1/8 inch diameter. Looks like maybe a piece of plastic from the fuel filter? I think it may have been holding open that brass plunger.
I,ll know tomorrow if it fixed the cold start issue.
Truck does run cosiderably better.

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So, the truck still had a rough start,but noticably better.When it started rough he cycled the ignition switch 8-10 times it lit off smooth and clean and didnt burp after that first cold start. It was below 30 degrees this morning.
For tomorrow morning I asked him to light the truck off,and if it is rough to turn it off, cycle glow plugs and to try again, and see how many cycles it will take to get smooth,starting the truck after each cycle.
Truck runs 100% better than it was powerwise after the blue spring update.Before at a stop giving truck WOT, the truck would lag for 2-3 seconds,and it seemed each shift was drawn out. Now, it spools immediately hammering each shift quickly.Owner is pleased with the improved performance.
I added diselcleen cleaner/lubricant to lube the fuel side of the injectors.
I'll post tomorrow to let you all know how many cycles it takes to light the truck off clean.
I would also like to add that before the bluespring update he could get the truck to run smooth in his driveway by cycling the ignition, but by the end of his street it would run ratty,until the trucked reached operating temp,now with one rough start,and 8-10 times cycling the key it runs smooth and does not go back to running rough. The blue spring worked, I would just like to try to get the truck to light smooth the first time.
Thanks Bryan

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Arrrrgh!, Owner pressure washed engine today. I met him there to pick up some money he owed me. he is pleased at the new found performance of his truck.
As he left he called me to tell me how much power the trruck now has.
About 3 hours later, he called to say truck has lost power, pressing the pedal has little effect.
I scanned and came up with 2 codes (p0046,p2263) turbo related codes.
p0046 is identified as a short to ground,open or short to power to the VGTCV or wiring between PCM and VGCTV.
p2263 this code is used to detect a aircharge hose that has become disconnected,can also be set with any condition that would cause low power.
Do you think that this is related to the pressure wash today? It was running fine leaving the pressure wash place.
I told him to let it sit to dry out.

The top of these engines stay pretty dry, I would say it is definately related, make sure the map hose is still connected. I would let it idle for a while then let the heat of the engine dry it out.

Alright, so the truck has power back this morning I cleared stored turbo codes and all is good, the pressure wash was the culprit.
The truck still has cold start issues, but cycling the key 5-6 times seems to work, I'm thinking the injectors may have gotten hammered with the low fuel pressure. Will a reflash for stiction issues fix this?
Once the truck is started(after cycling key) it runs awesome all day. The owner may have to do the key cycle dance until he is ready to pop on a set of injectors.
Also hoping the Rev-x and fuel treatment will help this condition over time.
Bobfbigman, Thank you so much for your insight, and the time to respond to my many questions.

So, starting engine after each key cycle it started in 7 attempts and ran great all day. Today, cycled key 7 times turning to off position after injectors stop buzzing, not starting beween attempts,and started great and ran great all day.
Do you think a flash for stiction issues will cure it? Or are the injectors toast?