'98 Ram 3500 with no 5th gear
 

---- Thanks in advance for any help with this! ----

Before I forget, my truck is a 2WD 1998 24V Ram 3500 DRW, has a little over 230K.


I got this truck last week, and on the way home (~130 miles on the highway) the truck was absolutely fine until I got close to home. About 5 miles from home I got caught at a stoplight, and after the light went green, off I went, right through the gears- that is until I rowed to 5th and the truck quit pulling. Well after shopping for a late 2nd gen Dodge for over a month, I had already heard about the nut that holds 5th gear in place on the mainshaft sometimes falling off, so as soon as I got in the door I started searching the web. Found all kind of great info, and this morning finally got around to pulling the tail housing off the trans. I should also add that this transmission appears to have been recently rebuilt, but I have no records with the truck. When I removed the housing, I was VERY surprised to see that 5th gear appeared to be exactly where it should be and the nut (an updated type) was tight.
There was some evidence of rubbing in the housing from the 5th synchro gear so I took a closer look at that and the snap ring shot off like a rocket. I guessed it had been half cocked and that kept 5th gear from locking in when the shift fork tried to engage it. SO I reinstalled the parts and the snap ring and put everything else together, filled the trans with gear oil and hit the road- still no 5th gear. :flamingmad:

So, anyone got an idea what could it be? Until it stopped working, it was totally fine. I didnt lug it in 5th at all and havent pulled anything with it. The gear oil I drained out was in great shape, like I mentioned above the transmission has evidence of being rebuilt in the past few months so I am surprised this would happen... but I really need to get my truck back on the road!

(uploading pics now)

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IDK, but it sounds like a crappy rebuild. :ouch:

does it actually shift into 5th and does it make any noise when in fifth? The reason I ask is the splines may be rounded off on the shaft and the fifth gear and not show any signs outside untill you pull the gear off. The nut looks like an old style nut also.

OK well after messing with it today I am left wondering if I have to rebuild it, who sells affordable rebuild kits? After all, I did just pay for the truck, now having to do a major repair is gonna hurt a little. Does anyone still offer a NV4500 mainshaft that will solve the common 5th gear problem? If I have to go that route, I only want to go there once, know what I mean. Also- are the aftermarket short shift kits I have seen for sale worth messing with? I would love to tighten up the shift throw a little bit.

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Yes the shifter moves into 5th but when I let the clutch out, nothing. No noise that I can hear.

The nut has 2 or 3 small set screws, I realize this is not the split style nut sold by the dealerships but my understanding is that the factory nut would not have set screws in it.

check out Whits post here
 

This will help check it out
https://www.dieselbombers.com/dodge-...ar-issues.html
I belive southern gear sells shafts here in atlanta.

Is noone else thinking that the problem may have something to do with the wear present on the inside of the tail housing?

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I will take a look, thanks for the link!

The picture you attached to post #19 in that thread is a good shot to get a comparison against what mine looked like today. I just dont understand how if my 5th gear nut is tight, and my 5th gear is in place, what could be keeping it from engaging? I understand your suggestion that the splines might be gone both on the gear and the shaft, but there was ZERO visible metal in the gear oil I drained at all and when I spun the shaft by hand 5th gear was engaging its synchro gear properly. If the splines stripped I would expect excess play in the 5 gear and at least metallic filings in the gear oil...

The parts held on by that snap ring on the 5th synchro gear, does anyone know what they are and what exactly they do? Could something be wrong there (or further in the transmission) causing loss of 5th gear and the wear inside of the tail housing?

Forgive my ignorance, 11 years of mechanic work and I managed to avoid tearing into a standard transmission... and now I have no choice!

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Jet- this is beginning to make more sense now, but I really hope it isn't the case.


I know its hard to tell from the pictures, but this appears to be a full splined shaft, grooved for thrust washer, with an Aftermarket Nut (3 Set Screws and Brass Pads).

According to what I have read:

Trouble is... I had no loud noise at time of failure and could see no metal in the gear oil that I drained. And I am not deaf or blind (yet). Also the gear did not freely move independant of the shaft.

Maybe I didn't beat it hard enough, perhaps I should go start the truck up, put it in fifth gear and sit in the driveway idling for 10 minutes, then tear it down again tomorrow and have a look.

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This 911 help section is a great idea BTW, thanks DB. :tu:

get the updated nut from dodge also check the shift dogs make sure none are broken

synchro ring
 

The outer sychro ring is installed backwards.Caused the rubbing on the tail shaft case.the bevel of the ring should be aft.

picture
 

here are some pictures of the bevel on the syncro ring of the fifth gear. to remove the fork you have to drive out the two 5/32 roll pins, flip the ring should fix your problem. Please update us.

Again, thanks for the suggestion but I this already has a fully splined shaft with an updated nut. The nut is not loose and the shaft and gear are not stripped or broken.


Nice catch, surprising that 5th ever worked at all like that.

Today I got it apart, and ended up messing with the 5th synchro until I could see the thing actually lock into 5th when my wife shifted it. Yesterday I didnt verify this and must have put the inner ring back on wrong. Put it back together and verified 5th operation prior to wasting another gallon of gear oil and powerlifting the propshaft. Everything was good, filled it up and bolted it all back together and drove around town for 3hrs today, 5th is working great at the moment.

I was thinking the root cause of this was the snap ring being installed backwards by the rebuilder, because when I looked at it today the inner edge was chamfered on one side and not the other. Such that under enough pressure it would pop out of its groove and rub the inside of the tail housing- cause a lot of endplay in the 5th synchro assembly and keeping 5th from locking in. This idea made even more sense considering the initial failure was on a nice hard powershift into 5th.

Jet now that you have noticed that my outer ring isnt beveled, let me ask you this, is that part symetrical- meaning if installed backwards could it be possible for 5th to work at all? Does the outer ring come in a rebuild kit? I only ask because if not, perhaps my outer ring is an aftermarket rebuild part and does not have the bevel that the original ring came with. Otherwise I would have to think that the chamfer I saw on the snap ring was wear from the initial failure and not by design- meaning that the root cause would be the outer ring installed backwards is a problem for hot rod powershifting your NV4500... and before I do any serious mods I should flip the ring (maybe replace it) and replace that cracked shift fork.
:argh:

Jet I really appreciate your help here, I owe you a beverage or 12 of your choice for sure. Do you have a good supplier for individual NV4500 parts? I guess I can always try the dealer but I have never dealt with the local Dodge place and not sure yet how helpful they will be. I think if I am gonna drill those pins out and pull that outer ring that I am going to go ahead and get replacement parts ahead of time. I called the local Transtar place and the idiot on the other end of the phone didn't even believe that Dodge put a manual transmission in a '98 Ram.

Thanks for the update. I believe the outer synchro ring is not symetrical longitudnally from the shift fork center line. It is possible that the synchro ring is holding just on the edge (not fully engaged) of the fifth gear itself and when that snap ring moved it gave it more play to keep it from engaging.
The snap rings sometimes have a sharp side and a rounded or beveled side most people I have met dont really pay that much attention. Good attention to detail!! I think that this is from the forming process of the ring in other words the stamp. But I always try to install snap rings with the sharp/flatest side in. In most cases a snap ringed item isn't designed to carry thrust loads to well(mostly radial loads).
I will have to check with one of the DB moderators to see if there is a Transmission parts vendor/sponsor here on Diesel bombers who can get theses parts.
If not I can get the parts usually one day but dont want to overstep a vendor/sponsor here at DB.

When you are ready to replace the parts you don't have to drill the pins out of the shift fork. All you need is the correct size of pin punch and the pins drive out and can be reused.

Updates??

Please update.

Going to close the thread for now. Can reopen the thread and update.

Sorry, been meaning to update- it has been about ~400 miles? and absolutely no problems whatsoever. I am going to rebuild the driveshaft soon and at that time I will pull the tailshaft housing again and reinspect. I need to reseal it anyhow with ultra grey since the ultra black did not work :argh:

THANKS FOR ALL THE HELP :c:

Updates??

Going to close the thread for now (sounds like issue fixed). Thread publisher can reopen and update.

OK MORE TRANSMISSION PROBLEMS

I got a call to move 3 trucks this morning. Left the neighborhood (empty trailer in tow), 1st, 2nd, going into 3rd holy shit it feels like the driveshaft just fell out. Pull over on the shoulder and even sitting still in neutral its still making a hell of a noise, put the clutch in and it goes away, clutch out its back (even in neutral). Limp it back to the house and here it sits.

I am not sure if the part of the clutch came apart and is being slung around in the bellhousing or if some other retainer in the transmission came apart or if something else in the trans just plain broke but something is majorly :edit: up this time.

:argh::argh::argh::argh:

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The fact that the clutch stops the noise is interesting. Noise is too loud to be a release bearing. Idling and inspecting from underneath noise is loudest at bellhousing area. I doubt its splines stripping off an input shaft or anything as I was able to drive it roughly a mile without it getting any worse. Noise is moderate at idle, a little more pronounced in 1st, even more so in 2nd, 3rd literally feels like something is coming apart. I havent even tried to drive it in 3rd it felt so bad.

Maybe flywheel or pressure plate? Seems like that would make noise with clutch out, in neutral, but with clutch in the release bearing takes the load. The flywheel/PP would be under progressively more load with each upshift, and that seems to fit my symptoms.

Only way to find out what happened is drop the transmission. :ouch:

OK trans is out, left the clutch on the flywheel for now as the when I spin the input shaft on the trans by hand it is much tougher than it should be and will even bind up- looks like the culprit may be in there. I think I am going to have a local transmission shop tear it down and see whats going on.

If your that far, may as well replace the clutch, throwout bearing, pilot bushing, and grind the fly wheel.

Clutch, flywheel, etc all look less than 6 months old. I am planning to inspect everything before I put it back together if I can find a lineup tool.

By the way, broke official diagnosis is a couple missing teeth on the 3rd countershaft gear. At least I think its third... anyhow looking for another transmission now. :dang:

Ouch. :ouch:

Does anyone know a trustworthy place to buy a rebuilt/reman transmission from?

We have them rebuilt locally. This one shop has been doing our 4500 and 5600 rebuilds for years. That said, shipping on a 300lb transmission would be a little stiff from coast to coast twice. We can get you all the parts, though. Any gear or anything can be replaced. Get a list together of what you need (bearings, seals, syncros, ect) and get with me.

You might check with All Star transmission in Tampa Florida. I have bought parts from them to rebuild some fords and they are good people to deal with. They rebuild and ship them everywhere.

Updates??

New (reman) transmission should be here tomorrow... I will update.

Glad to hear you got it figured, although it is an expensive touch just before Christmas - but oh well. Youll have a new tranny. Make sure you use the correct fluid in it.

Did you get upgraded synchros?

Yeah the rebuilt transmission was $1000, 3yr/36k warranty, etc. This one is supposed to have "all the updates", etc. I am pulling the tailshaft tomorrow to check out the 5th gear nut/mainshaft and make sure the snap ring is on correctly but I don't know what to look for on the synchros. Also realized today that regular Synchromesh fluid isn't good enough for these? There is an Amsoil dealer up the street maybe they have something that will work for me?

I am also rebuilding the driveshaft at the same time, had 2 u joints with play. Figured I would do the center support bearing while I was at it, turns out only place I could get it was the dealer. $145!

I got some "Brute Force" heavy duty u-joints, went to install them and noticed they aren't greaseable, WTF. Then one of them is a defect, right out of the box. I am ready to finish messing with this shit and drive my Dodge again, dammit. :argh:

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OK after doing a little more research I am pretty convinced the reman that was in the truck when I bought it did not get the correct spec fluid in it from day one and that is what killed it. Even if I had switched to that fluid when I fixed 5th gear the damage was probably already done to the kevlar synchros. From the test drive until it broke the truck would almost always grind 2nd gear when cold, I thought it was air in the clutch master/slave but I am willing to bet now there was a problem with the synchros there, and from the looks of it probably with 3rd synchros as well. The day it broke I had an extra 2K behind the truck, the trans was cold, and when I shifted into 3rd it just gave me the big ':edit: you'.

Turns out all I would have had to do the day it broke to see the carnage was remove the PTO covers with the transmission still in the truck.

http://i424.photobucket.com/albums/p...0/100_9305.jpg

http://i424.photobucket.com/albums/p...0/100_9306.jpg

http://i424.photobucket.com/albums/p...0/100_9307.jpg

This reman transmission was advertised as having all the updates, from what I can see it has a full threaded mainshaft, grooved for thrust washer, locking nut, etc etc etc just like the broken transmission PLUS this one has been welded together. I think it should hold up pretty well, but I'm really careful not to be in 5th gear below 1500-1600 rpm anyway.

http://i424.photobucket.com/albums/p...0/100_9316.jpg

I just need to reassemble everything and get my hands on some correct fluid and I should be all set.

Ladies and Gentlemen, I am pleased to announce the transmission transplant was a success. Drives and shifts even better than before, no leaks so far and my only complaint is an intermittently inoperable back-up lamp switch. :jump:

Probably needs a little electa-clean to rid the dirt and oil. :tu: