(got this in a e-mail the other day, has anybody here give it any serious thought & what you would do if stuck in a hotel or other public venue when a terrorist or multiple terrorists came through hell bent on killing as many people as possible?)

There has been a great deal of discussion about what to carry for an event like Mumbai. Gents, let's think about this. If you happen to be caught up in this at its conclusion, facing a dozen riflemen working together as a unit, and you with your Kel-Tec, what do you think your realistic chances of success are? Being real is not being defeatist, but come on.

Now, at the outset of the event, where there may be only one or two adversaries, it gets a little better in terms of odds. But only a little. You have one advantage and that is the advantage of surprise and one target. They, on the other hand have many avenues of danger to cover, only one which is yours. This will be a rapidly moving fluid situation.

One man was saying that using a cell phone to photograph the bad guys would be good. Pictures of the bad guys on your cell phone? Come on....seriously? If you have the ability to take their picture, you also have the ability to take their life, or GTFOT (get the f*** out of there) so get out of the evidence collecting mindset.

Number two, some guys were discussing carrying a special bag with them with all manner of weapons and gear to facilitate such a fight. Keeping a Bug Out Bag in the office or in the car is a wise move, but I doubt many of us are going to walk around fully kitted out all the time, so I think this will be limited to what you have on your person. Know what....you'll carry your tango bag everywhere until you get sick of it and leave it in the car one day and then, that will be the day and you will fight with what you have on your person anyway.

Those of you with little bitty guns (snubbies and Glock 27s and such), I suggest you rethink your weapon choices. I can run a mini-Glock pretty good, but not as good as a full sized gun. What do I carry? A Glock 22 when at home and a Glock 17 when away. 15 rounds or 17 rounds respectively.

Yes, the bigger gun is harder to hide. Yes, I have to choose my clothing more carefully. Yes, its heavier. All of those things they tell you are true. But when you NEED THE MOTHER F'ING GUN NOW, those uber-comfortable pocket chain guns so popular with the CCW crowd will never allow you to fight as well as a full-sized gun.

Calibers - Please! I will take a 40 or a 9mm over a 45 any day of the week for the simple fact of the matter that I can fight much longer with one than I can with a seven or eight shot weapon. It may have been a caliber edge in 1976 when the only thing going was marginal hollow point ammo, but not today bwana. Ask any of those metro-sexual gun instructors if they want to get shot in the face with my "45 set on stun".
Magazine capacity is not an asset, it is a blessing.

Engagement Dynamics - Short range, run and gun, point shooting is an essential skill and must be prioritized for the urban ambush gunfight. However, for anti-terrorist activity, if you find yourself just outside or arm's length with a doped up, combat-trained AK-armed tango, you have already stepped into it. You can still fight, but wouldn't it be far better to be able to ice these monkeys from 25, 50 or even 100 yards?

Read the reports boys. There are folks who had an eye on the action from a distance. "If only I had a gun" was one of the Brit reporters said. The ability to hit out at these distances is not hard at all. But it must be learned and trained. And, your gear must support your ability to do it.

Those uber-court-proof heavy triggers promoted as essential by the lawyer-instructors are trash. Get rid of them. You don't need a hair trigger on your pistol, but you do need a manageable trigger. My Glocks for example all use the standard 5# connector set up and give me a crisp release that is conducive to accuracy. You don't need the 3# target connector, but good heavens don't add one of the abominable New York triggers.

Those big fat close range sights? If you can hit at 100 yards with them, drive on. I cannot, so I use sharply defined black iron sights like the Heines, and the Trijicons. Those of you with eye issues that can't use the irons well enough, invest in one of the Docter red dot sights. Yep....a red dot sight on your pistol. It is small enough to carry around and bright enough that even Mr. Magoo can hit at 100 meters with it.

Another thing - Usually after one of those events I will hear "By golly if I had been there I would have pulled out my custom model 29 and..." That is usually spoken by a guy who hasn't done any physical training since high school, would have a heart attack if he had to run ten feet to cover, and is so out of condition he could not fight his way out of a Sierra Club Tea Party In San Francisco. I'm not trying to offend anyone here but its not just about marksmanship and your ammo choices. If you are already a good shot, you need to get away from the range and into the gym or the street and train your out of shape shooter's body so you will be able to fight not just shoot.

And finally, without which all else is wasted, develop the will to kill. It is hard for some to sneak up on a man and shoot him in the back of the head unannounced, regardless of what the man has done, or is about to do. You need to get over that if you want to be a player at this level. it is not about capturing, or about bringing to justice, or about "stopping the action". it is about getting the drop on a terrorist from a distance, unseen and undetected, putting your sights on his ear, controlling your heartbeat, and then pressing that trigger without a moment's hesitation.

__________________
Gabe Suarez

 

I think about this quite a bit actually. No one can be totally prepared for what did/could/will take place but paying attention to detail and your surroundings can really help out in the end. Always make sure of where you are and possible escape routes. Never wind up in an enclosed area with a lot of people where there is only one entrance and that entrance is on the opposite side of where you are. Family members complicate scenarios but they have to be able to react or respond to your lead. Everyone should have a favorite "safe" place that all of your immediate family (spouse, kids) knows about. SHTF happens and everyone should know what to do. I keep loaded mags for the weapons that will accompany us in this event. I alternate them so as to not wear out followers or springs and this makes sure they will perform when they are needed. I have my ammo stored in dry boxes and clearly labeled. I do an inventory round count after each camping trip or range visit and try to restock as necessary. I can rely on my mountain skills for the most part but general good common sense along with the ability to patiently observe are the some of the best skills one could possess. I agree with staying in shape and regularly practicing with your firearms is essential too. Bottom line is I would rather go fighting like mad then being treated like a lamb at slaughter time.

Sorry for the rambling.

 

staarma, you are not rambling, not in the least & bring up some valuable points.

I'm a big believer in situational awareness & what you posted goes along with that. Something else I really hate is staying in hotels above the 3rd or 4th floor as fire truck ladders do not go all that high & ya need a 2nd & 3rd way out in case of emergency.

I do not keep loaded mags, but am working on fixing that issue, but here again I'm a believer in that load em and forget em. The more ya load/unload em the faster the springs wear out & thus load em and forget em. I'm working on getting enough Pmags to load and forget with XM193 for a basic load (7 mags) for each AR in the bug out plan. However, we plan on bugging in instead of out.

When travelling and staying/visiting large public venues I try to stay in yellow with the head on a swivel & have several plans on what to do if the power goes out to being separated along with worst case what if's.

Always play the "what if" game & you will come out ahead. I also ordered Magpuls new 3 disc series Art of the Tactical Carbine for training and can't wait till Christmas to get em

 

I too, as many others have pondered the thoughts of robberys, hostage situation, convienence store hold-ups, and of course... the inevitable hostage/terrorist situation you have briefly described herein.
Armed every day with the Browning 9mm and two full clips, I'm never far from my piece. At work, I have decided to eliminate the hassle involved with wearing it on the production floor although many here have their CCW and their answer to those situations are only the parking lot away, which in some situations may not be reachable.
I've had mine for going on 30 yrs now and being a avid sportsman I too have the usual "Long Range" weapons and I suppose I won't be in a position to use them except in a situation where some dumb rag head rides up my driveway and I know they're coming.
As far a urban tactical prepardness, I think of myself as being 50%-75% ready for anything like the above. I have a pretty good understanding of cover, patience, accuracy-as in (slow is smooth, smooth is fast, fast is a lifesaver.)
Living in the "soon to become" communist state Kalifornia, it's increasingly harder to exercise your gun packing rights. My kids are prepared as I am, being trained and coached and learning many of the details I saw in those video trailers (which were awesome by the way...cant wait to order my set...) Not everyone has access to automatic weapons as described in those video clips so us good ol boys need to be real accurae with what we have available.
Keeping in mind being in the same building with a terrorist group who are heavily armed we can only hope there's a lot of country boys packin', cause it would be a kodak moment to see the face of some raggy, when he pulls out a AK and 30 people in the room all pull a piece and aim at his head.... at the same time.

db

 

Cool DVD's. I'll have to go there and check them out. I would love to attend a Blackwater or similar training camp one day. Been too long out of the Army and I'm jonesing for more pain I guess.

 

I don't know if this is targeted towards the grocery getter in the family wanting to buy a gun for home defense or people like you and me who can appreaciate the control it takes to place a hot slug on a matchbook at 50 yds.
try this link...

Front Sight Firearms Training Institute

my insurance agent turned me onto this place but I really dont have the money or time to devote right now.. it'd be a refresher course of sorts for me anyway, but it might be your cup-of-tea.

db

 

Front Sight "was" going to be a great place, but they have fallen on hard times and from what I understand have been tied up in court & have other law suits hanging on from stock holders & others who were supporting em and trying to get it going. Now I'm not sure as to what extent they are at now, but they did offer some high quality training.

++ MAGPUL INDUSTRIES ++ has some great products and the DVD's are just out of this world. I've also got the book Green Eyes and Black Rifles: Warriors Guide to the Combat Carbine and it's another superb resource for those of us who want to do something besides just sit at home drinking starbucks & watching tv Here is another review to The Art of the tactical carbine

Warrior Talk Forums - Powered by vBulletin just sent out another e-mail today and it's another good one as well is there web site. Only thing with there web site is it's geared towards the AK fan & lhas lots of stuff/ideas/training that way, but you can take it and use the info any way ya want. Not tomention they have some forums that really get you a thinking and learning from what's posted.

MORE ON MUMBAI - WHAT WE THINK

1). On what to do - Some folks think we are advocating running into the fight screaming with a knife in one hand and a snubby in the other. I'm not sure where that comes from, as it has never been suggested and is quite silly when you think about it.


Still, an aggressive counter attack at the outset of the incident seems to be a better option than hiding and hoping to go undetected once the bad guys have consolidated their forces. I do think that if you are unarmed (why would anyone do that today?), your options are very limited.


Additionally, if you are not at the point of contact, going to the fight may not be smart as you don't have any more info other than shots have been fired.
Going out in a blaze of glory is not on anyone's "to do" list here - at least I don't think so. But hiding helplessly and calling for help is not on it either.


If you can't do anything about the event, I am all for getting the "foxtrot" out of dodge. As far as evidence gathering - or getting intel out - or helping the police identify the bad guys, etc. Why is that your problem?


2). If you are armed (as well you should be), and know what is happening beyond a shadow of a doubt (its not the DEA in a firefight with a drug dealer that you are now intervening in), and in a position to shoot the bad guys - well - what do you think you should do?

911? Nope - not for me. Someone else can do that.

Call someone else ? Not at that point - not for me.

I am either engaging, or getting out. Once I am out, I may call, but when in the fire, you either fight, fly, or fry.

3). Before considering engaging the bad guys, consider who is with you. For example, endangering your family to save someone else may be seen by some as the epitome of selflessness, but I see it as the epitome of stupidity. I got a chance to speak with a Deputy whose daughter was killed by an armed robber because he chose to put another's property and safety above that of his own family. Bad choice - very bad choice.

If I am in a Mumbai-esque situation with them, my job is to use my skills to get them out. Those who did not prepare are on their own until I get them to, what I consider, safety. If fifty unarmed peacenik liberals get slaughtered because I chose the safety of my tribe and family first, oh well - they made their bed, now they can bleed in it.


Now, having said that, if any tangos are in your way as you egress, you bet you should shoot your exit right through them. If I am alone, I may do something different, but family and tribe comes before anyone and anything else - so should yours.

4). If I am at ground zero, when the bad guys begin shooting, and I am alone, I will attack. Not because it is the best thing to do, but because it is the only thing to do. What other option do you have? I suggest you do likewise. And understand the tactical implications of "ATTACK". It doesn't mean running into their midst with a knife in one hand and a Glock in the other screaming "Wolverines". If that is what you think attacking means- dude! - you need to come to class and get updated. How many times have I made an issue of shooting from long range in the Terrorist Interdiction Course?? Attack means you get your sights on the terrorist (his head if possible) and you smoke him in cold blood. This is vastly different from a typical civilian CCW self-defense shooting. There is no need for warning - no requirement to do anything, nor any chance given for surrender.

Perhaps AMBUSH is a better word.

5). I do not see the advantage in hunkering down and allowing the event to consolidate itself while you, the good witness, gather and pass information. That may be what the authorities want you to do as it benefits their mission. But YOUR mission is different.

I see what goes on in the Al Qaeda Training Video, and what has taken place in nearly every event where there have been organized terrorist active shooters. They have a plan and once they are able to consolidate their forces your options get very very limited.

An example - they know you are hiding in a covered area - and they will notice once they either stumble upon you in their security sweeps, or when you fire at one of them. They order you to come out. You tell them to go suck bacon. They grab a little girl and blow her brains out right there in front of you and her mother. As she falls, they grab another one. The mother is no longer screaming as she has been butt stroked into unconsciousness. Then they tell you again to come out as they grab up her sister and put the muzzle of an AK in her mouth. This is right out of their play books.

6). Some guys are assuming the bad guys will be using AKs. I think in Mumbai they used AKs because that was what they could get in Pakistan. One of my contacts - a man who should know, advises the rifles they used were Pakistani military AKs. If G3s would have been available, they may have used those.

Some think the AK will always mark you with the image of "the bad guy". I think having ANY rifle in your hands may do that in these cases. Some interesting things in this area. I have asked several police guys about this and the truth is they can't readily distinguish between a FAL and an SKS. A rifle is a rifle and a pistol is a pistol. That is usually as far as it gets.

Another case in point - The Beltway terrorists Malvo and Mohammed, they used an AR-15.

Interestingly enough, there has been a fair bit of off the schedule training of cops with AKs. Agencies that allow their people to buy their own stuff are seeing more and more AKs in service. Specially the Arsenal SLRs in 223.

7). If the event is a typical psycho-lone gunman type thing like Trolley Square, Tacoma Mall, et al, you can expect a reasonably quick police response (still in the realm of several minutes at best). So the idea of picking up one of the bad guy's rifles may not be either needed, nor wise. If you find yourself in this, you will be fighting with your pistol, not with the bad guy's rifle, nor your personal rifle. Time to go get it, you will not have.

In a Mumbai/Beslan type event you can bet the tangos will have set up something to delay the police. Whether it is explosives, or outside shooters (which you may need to deal with as you egress anyway), or something. In such an event, picking up the bad guy's weapons is an option. An option, but not one without risks. It gives you a better capability to engage and drop tangos than your CCW pistol, but in these events, anyone with a rifle may still be mistaken as a bad guy.

8). I have heard a great deal of discussion about whether Mumbai was a practice run or not. This attitude is usually seen in very US-centric thinkers. Not everything that happens around the world has anything to do with us. This was as much a practice run as Pearl Harbor was a practice run for the invasion of the Philippines.

Terror is seen as a tool by the terrorists, and not usually as an end in itself. There was a reason for Beslan, The Twin Towers, Madrid, etc. Terror creates fear and the realization that the authority in power cannot protect anyone. This will either bring a solidarity against the evil, as has been seen in Israel, or the desire to appease the evil, as has been seen in Europe. Terror hopes to appeal to that appeasement mentality who wants to give in to the terrorist so the terror will stop.

It also appeals to man's natural hatred. In this case, it appeals to the Indians who will say - "See what happens when we make friends with Americans and Jews".
It will also appeal to those who will say, "See you cannot trust Pakistan. Pakistan is and always has been, our enemy".

The fomenting of those sentiments and their cultivation and development, which may be strategically seen as an advantage by the terrorist masterminds, is what Mumbai was about.

Still, one cannot ignore that many victims there did not give a flying fornication about US Foreign Policy, India's Alliances, or Islam's Expansion, but they were still tortured and killed, specially if they were Jews or Americans.

Gabe Suarez

 

Now, we're getting into some great info.

One of my best friends used to be a Front Sight instructor back in the late 90's and early 00's. I got him into the sport and he took the ball and ran. It was cool to watch him progress the way he did. He now makes custom popo snipers and has some DOD contracts for custom parts.