5.9L 24V Performance Discussion of 24 Valve 5.9 Liter Dodge Cummins Diesels with VP44 Injection Pumps Related To Performance And Longevity

clutchless shifting

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  #21  
Old 06-09-2010, 07:53 PM
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I know your not askin me here, but I'll reply anyway while were waitin for him. In my world I wouldn't want to. I tow loads of 30,000 plus with 3:59 gears and 33 inch tires and a 5 speed tranny. I'm maxed out on power with this combination. I have to make my shifts as fast as possible to keep the RPM loss down between shifts. I miss a gear for even an instant and I start over at the beginning again.
 
  #22  
Old 06-10-2010, 03:36 PM
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i think its just easier on the tranny but i know where uncle bubbas comin from its just kind of personal preference its just what im used to my dad always either double clutched or power shifted when he was towin with his powerstroke but those early pwrstrkes with the 5 speed couldnt keep trannys in to save there life sorry im rablin but you shift how ever u want either way you'll get down the road fine
 
  #23  
Old 06-17-2010, 10:14 AM
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Originally Posted by RAWilliams
I figure plain and simple that if your transmission has syncros in in, you CAN power shift. If it does not have syncros, it is inadvisable. Many people think they have a syncro mesh transmission, mostly because it sounds cool. Fact of the matter is that most light duty truck transmission do not have syncros.
You've got that exactly backwards... Most light duty transmissions do have syncros and most big truck transmissions do not.

Here is a quote from Wikipedia, which is reasonably accurate, if general:

Unsynchronized transmission
The earliest form of a manual transmission is thought to have been invented by Louis-René Panhard and Emile Levassor in the late 19th century. This type of transmission offered multiple gear ratios and, in most cases, reverse. The gears were typically engaged by sliding them on their shafts— hence the term "shifting gears," which required a lot of careful timing and throttle manipulation when shifting, so that the gears would be spinning at roughly the same speed when engaged; otherwise, the teeth would refuse to mesh. These transmissions are called "sliding mesh" transmissions and sometimes called a crash box. Most newer transmissions instead have all gears mesh at all times but allow some gears to rotate freely on their shafts; gears are engaged using sliding-collar dog clutches; these are referred to as "constant-mesh" transmissions.

In both types, a particular gear combination can only be engaged when the two parts to engage (either gears or dog clutches) are at the same speed. To shift to a higher gear, the transmission is put in neutral and the engine allowed to slow down until the transmission parts for the next gear are at a proper speed to engage. The vehicle also slows while in neutral and that slows other transmission parts, so the time in neutral depends on the grade, wind, and other such factors. To shift to a lower gear, the transmission is put in neutral and the throttle is used to speed up the engine and thus the relevant transmission parts, to match speeds for engaging the next lower gear. For both upshifts and downshifts, the clutch is released (engaged) while in neutral. Some drivers use the clutch only for starting from a stop, and shifts are done without the clutch. Other drivers will depress (disengage) the clutch, shift to neutral, then engage the clutch momentarily to force transmission parts to match the engine speed, then depress the clutch again to shift to the next gear, a process called double clutching. Double clutching is easier to get smooth, as speeds that are close but not quite matched need to speed up or slow down only transmission parts, whereas with the clutch engaged to the engine, mismatched speeds are fighting the rotational inertia and power of the engine.

Even though automobile and light truck transmissions are now almost universally synchronised, transmissions for heavy trucks and machinery, motorcycles, and for dedicated racing are usually not. Non-synchronized transmission designs are used for several reasons. The friction material, such as brass, in synchronizers is more prone to wear and breakage than gears, which are forged steel, and the simplicity of the mechanism improves reliability and reduces cost. In addition, the process of shifting a synchromesh transmission is slower than that of shifting a non-synchromesh transmission. For racing of production-based transmissions, sometimes half the teeth (or "dogs") on the synchros are removed to speed the shifting process, at the expense of greater wear.

Heavy duty trucks use unsynchronized transmissions in the interest of saving weight.[citation needed] Military edition trucks, which do not have to obey weight laws, usually have synchronized transmissions, though this is also contingent upon the need for non trained personnel to be able to operate them in emergencies. Highway use heavy-duty trucks in the United States are limited to 80,000 pounds GVWR, and the lighter the curb weight for the truck, the more cargo can be carried; with a synchronizer adding weight to a truck that could otherwise be used to carry cargo, most drivers are simply taught how to double clutch, initially, and then most eventually gravitate to shifting without the clutch.[citation needed] In the United States, traffic safety rules refer to non-synchronous transmissions in classes of larger commercial motor vehicles. In Europe heavy duty trucks use synchronized gearboxes as standard.

Similarly, most modern motorcycles use unsynchronized transmissions as synchronizers are generally not necessary or desirable. Their low gear inertias and higher strengths mean that forcing the gears to alter speed is not damaging, and the pedal operated selector on modern motorcycles is not conducive to having the long shift time of a synchronized gearbox. Because of this, it is necessary to synchronize gear speeds by blipping the throttle when shifting into a lower gear on a motorcycle.

Synchronised transmission

Top and side view of a typical manual transmission, in this case a Ford Toploader, used in cars with external floor shifters.Most modern cars are fitted with a synchronised gear box. Transmission gears are always in mesh and rotating, but gears on one shaft can freely rotate or be locked to the shaft. The locking mechanism for a gear consists of a collar (or dog collar) on the shaft which is able to slide sideways so that teeth (or dogs) on its inner surface bridge two circular rings with teeth on their outer circumference: one attached to the gear, one to the shaft. When the rings are bridged by the collar, that particular gear is rotationally locked to the shaft and determines the output speed of the transmission. The gearshift lever manipulates the collars using a set of linkages, so arranged so that one collar may be permitted to lock only one gear at any one time; when "shifting gears," the locking collar from one gear is disengaged before that of another engaged. One collar often serves for two gears; sliding in one direction selects one transmission speed, in the other direction selects another.

In a synchromesh gearbox, to correctly match the speed of the gear to that of the shaft as the gear is engaged, the collar initially applies a force to a cone-shaped brass clutch attached to the gear, which brings the speeds to match prior to the collar locking into place. The collar is prevented from bridging the locking rings when the speeds are mismatched by synchro rings (also called blocker rings or baulk rings, with the latter being spelt balk in the U.S.). The synchro ring rotates slightly due to the frictional torque from the cone clutch. In this position, the dog clutch is prevented from engaging. The brass clutch ring gradually causes parts to spin at the same speed. When they do spin the same speed, there is no more torque from the cone clutch, and the dog clutch is allowed to fall in to engagement. In a modern gearbox, the action of all of these components is so smooth and fast it is hardly noticed.

Synchromesh

If the teeth, the so-called dog teeth, make contact with the gear, but the two parts are spinning at different speeds, the teeth will fail to engage and a loud grinding sound will be heard as they clatter together. For this reason, a modern dog clutch in an automobile has a synchronizer mechanism or synchromesh, which consists of a cone clutch and blocking ring. Before the teeth can engage, the cone clutch engages first which brings the selector and gear to the same speed using friction. Moreover, until synchronization occurs, the teeth are prevented from making contact, because further motion of the selector is prevented by a blocker (or baulk) ring. When synchronization occurs, friction on the blocker ring is relieved and it twists slightly, bringing into alignment certain grooves and notches that allow further passage of the selector which brings the teeth together. Of course, the exact design of the synchronizer varies from manufacturer to manufacturer.
Whether or not one knows it, the synchos ARE spinning constantly, and in turn wearing constantly, to make shifts when no clutch is used. Just the nature of the design of most transmissions below the level of a Road Ranger.
 
  #24  
Old 08-25-2011, 03:53 AM
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Biggest reason big trucks do not have synchros ... do not last as long as unsynchro trans ..another component to fail. They increase the cost of a trans, to build and re-build. Synchros easily add $3,000. to a Large trans cost. 1 synchro in an FS6406A can cost $400.-$600. An FS 6406A is a Fully Synchronized 6 speed manual used in F750's, Peterbuilts, Kenworths and other medium-heavy trucks. The latest Fuller model built by Eaton. Used mostly in box trucks.
On my F250 I have found that shifting w/o a clutch seems to wear the synchros faster. I do double-clutch when I downshift to make it easier for the synchros to slide over the gears to lock them to shift. When I pull a trailer, I find that if I D-C I can hold the power better. I shift into gear and pull away, rev to a point, de-clutch, shift to neutral, clutch out, rev, de-clutch shift into the next higher gear and clutch out. My engine retains a lot more of its power and I am a lot faster accelerating with a big load.
As far as gearboxes go... if you want strength and reliability then have the ZF S650. It is the Ford version ZF 6 speed o/d. It has a cooling system of its own. If you really want reliability in a manual gearbox on a light truck, then get an FSO 6406A. This is a 6 speed manual trans with a .79 O/D. I am pulling my Powerstroke (2 bad injectors and a rotting oil pan) and putting in a Cummins 5.9 out of a B700 Ford school bus and an FSO behind it. 14" clutches are stronger and cheaper than small truck clutches... go figure.

---AutoMerged DoublePost---

Originally Posted by B700
Biggest reason big trucks do not have synchros ... do not last as long as unsynchro trans ..another component to fail. They increase the cost of a trans, to build and re-build. Synchros easily add $3,000. to a Large trans cost. 1 synchro in an FS6406A can cost $400.-$600. An FS 6406A is a Fully Synchronized 6 speed manual used in F750's, Peterbuilts, Kenworths and other medium-heavy trucks. The latest Fuller model built by Eaton. Used mostly in box trucks.
On my F250 I have found that shifting w/o a clutch seems to wear the synchros faster. I do double-clutch when I downshift to make it easier for the synchros to slide over the gears to lock them to shift. When I pull a trailer, I find that if I D-C I can hold the power better. I shift into gear and pull away, rev to a point, de-clutch, shift to neutral, clutch out, rev, de-clutch shift into the next higher gear and clutch out. My engine retains a lot more of its power and I am a lot faster accelerating with a big load.
As far as gearboxes go... if you want strength and reliability then have the ZF S650. It is the Ford version ZF 6 speed o/d. It has a cooling system of its own. If you really want reliability in a manual gearbox on a light truck, then get an FSO 6406A. This is a 6 speed manual trans with a .79 O/D. I am pulling my Powerstroke (2 bad injectors and a rotting oil pan) and putting in a Cummins 5.9 out of a B700 Ford school bus and an FSO behind it. 14" clutches are stronger and cheaper than small truck clutches... go figure.
Sychronizers are the brass rings that help the gears to lock for a shift. They also keep the gears locked until the next shift. If you are driving on a smooth road and the gear shift lever jumps out, then you have at least a damaged synchro, but more importantly, you have a transmission that has a few days to a few hours before it will completely destroy itself. I know from 2 experiences. 1 was a used truck and the other was a trans installed by a mechanic who forgot to fill it with fluid.
Synchromesh is a system of helical cut gears that are machined to mesh together. If the big trucks did not have this, there would be an awful lot less drivers who could drive the big rigs. Synchromesh gears allow a gear to be shifted while moving, especially w/o a clutch. This idea of weight is garbage. Synchros will only add maybe 50-100 lbs at best. The trans weight is the casing, gears and fluid. The FSO weighs 359lbs dry. I doubt if it has 50lbs in sychros.
 

Last edited by B700; 08-25-2011 at 03:53 AM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
  #25  
Old 08-26-2011, 11:31 PM
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I've tried power shifting my truck a few times and it just doesn't like it at all so I don't do it. I would rather replace the clutch than parts in an NV5600. But I don't see any point in double clutching either especially when towing.
 
  #26  
Old 08-31-2011, 05:47 AM
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Originally Posted by GuyWithA24Valve
I've tried power shifting my truck a few times and it just doesn't like it at all so I don't do it. I would rather replace the clutch than parts in an NV5600. But I don't see any point in double clutching either especially when towing.
Try the d-c when you are really loaded. You will find a lot more power, faster.... because when you let up the clutch and apply power... your engine will have lost very little of its torque curve. Blipping the engine before you let up the clutch will keep the revs higher. See how far the revs on your engine drop when shifting and you will notice the dif. I found that I could get to speed a whole lot faster than before. Your synchros will work a lot less because the revs will make it easier to mesh the gears. I tell anybody driving my truck to d-c when downshifting. I have over 360K (220,000 M)on my truck with a very smooth and solid shifting ZF S650. The girls if they are pulling the trailer can notice how easy the gear shift lever slides into the next gear. All they have to do is hold the stick and it will drop into the gear.
 
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