Injector Testing Today........
 

Since we had a beautiful day today here in the area I called Lloyd Mills at Mid-Atlantic Diesel Performance for a quick dyno test comparison of two sets of injectors.The air was great and light with humidity which lead to no correction factor so it made a level playing field.

The two sets of injectors we tested back to back were my original ECD 5x13's that have the sac nozzle and a new set of Smokem's 5x14 VCO nozzles.The ECD injectors have no lift increase and were set at 270bar when we had them freshened up last year when I had the head-gasket leave the building.The Smokem 5x14's have a lift increase and are set at 300bar.All runs were done uncorrected and we tried to start each run as close as we could to each other.

The best we did today with the ECD injectors was 546.51 hp/1097.45 tq.We seen 53psi of boost and the EGT's maxed out at 1610 degrees according to my Intellidash.So we allowed the engine to cool and Lloyd and Coop began the task of swapping in Weston's injectors.

After the swap was done we went back to work on the jet and the best run with Weston's injectors was 539.27 hp/1065.72 tq.We seen 54psi of boost and the EGT's maxed out at 1700 degrees with these according to my Intellidash.

Now as one can see we lost a bit of HP and a bit of Tq with the 5x14's but they are a very smooth working injector compared to my older ECD's.The 5x13's were always a bit choppy when you accelerated off the bottom and always had a rough idle to them but drove fairly well so I never concerned myself with it.On the drive home tonite across the back roads in North Central Maryland back to PA I got to experience just how much better the Smokem 5x14's really were as the drive home made them shine.Gone was the choppy low end fueling and the rough idle at stop lights and the engine has never been so smooth.When I was at Lloyd's shop I commented that I had never seen my truck idle so smooth and the when you listen and watched you never seen a wiggle or stumble at all.The 5x14's are as explosive as the old ones and yet the driveability is a ton better.The highway tailpipe haze is alot less with the new set compared to my old set and at idle it is noticeably less.

I am very pleased with what we found today and we will see how they perform driving them back and forth to work for the next few weeks.So far I am impressed and with a tad more tweaking maybe we can squeeze some more out of them.I'd like to say THANK YOU to Mid-Atlantic Diesel Performance for the use of his Dyno-Jet 248H and also say thanks to both Lloyd and Coop for their help today.I will include the charts below for you to look over and see,It was a great day and I was pleased going home.....Andy

Awesome test :U:

:U:

As always - great info Andy :U:

Youre still running a single?? Garrett wasnt it?

Well....
I did forget to mention that we played a little bit today also after we installed the new injectors.Lloyd's shop always seems to bring out the HP animal in those who go there for work and to dyno,so we gave her a healthy dose of giggle gas.The truck lit the charger so hard it and charged through the powerband it lurched forward enough to loose the tach signal from the oliptical sensor which gives us the torque reading.The power number was all we got as we had to use the drum reading since the tach sensor quit reading in the middle of the run.The dyno sheet you see below is what we seen when we walked around to look at the chart..........740.03 HP..........Andy

P.S.-I told Lloyd I that NEEDED more as I was so close to my 800hp license plate I could smell it and all he could do was smile and tell me..."You'll be back for more".....LOL!

Yes it is still a single charger but the Garrett is long gone.It was sold to a owner in Western Ohio who runs it on his 79 Ford F350 Cummins Conversion and loves it.

The charger which is on my truck now is a High Tech Turbo Pro-Street 66,Its a 66/71/13SS.It was purchased from Mid-Atlantic last year right before Scheids and has been on the truck ever since........Andy

How does it work on the street for you?


Hittin the bottle sure helps a lot....

With mine being a 5 speed it actually drives quite nice.I have heard the horror stories about the low end lag on the 66 series chargers but am convinced that the stick helps and the tune is getting close to where it needs to be.With me fresh out of a divorce its my only vehicle now so it has to be able to drive well as I use it daily for work and errands.With this charger on I have been all up and down the East Coast and driven it out to the Midwest a few times and it loves the highway.It has done all I have asked and more and am quite happy with HTT and their product........Andy

Funny I think thats the one I tried to buy off you.... :poak: :bat: lol

Nice runs but something has always confused me. What is a SAC nozzle? I know it has something to do with the design but I've never figured out what that was. Cold you edumacate me please?

quick Q, what does it mean when they are seat a 270 bar and 300bar?

The sac nozzle is on the left,the VCO is on the right.

The VCO is more common with the 12v applications as they are more emissions friendly.

The sac is used more in Europe where emissions are not as enforced and when used here they are mainly a competition injector due to excessive smoke.

When you hold a sac nozzle up you can actually see through the tip from one side to the other as the pintle never covers the injection orfices.

I think thats close enough.

The pressure that the injector is set to pop and release the fuel into the engine.

270 300 that is like right around 4500 psi aint it...if IIRC

this is so cool 536 horse daily driver hows the single 66 with a trailer?

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539 oops

I have only towed one time with the big single with any type of weight and distance.Late last fall I went into Upstate PA to retrieve my sons Jeep Cherokee which had broken down on I-81 at the Pa/NY border when it lost the transmission.It was towed home on a open trailer down through the Endless Mountains of Upstate PA and then down over Hazelton Mountain.I had no issues with moving the load and had no surge issues while towing either and it actually performed alot better than I expected.I did not know what to expect when we left to go get him and other than a few smoke trails going up the bigger hills,egts were manageable.I will admit though since I do drive truck for a living I do know what to look for when towing on grades and know what I need to do to prevent any issues while towing.I know this,after the Jeep was repaired at the shop all I did for a couple of days was listen to him complain about how he had to clean the front of his Jeep up from all the soot,LOL.

I have driven this truck powerwise as a daily driver for the last 3 years.I take it everywhere and am not afriad to jump in it and drive to the West Coast if the need arises.When I started my build years ago I made sure that the combination had to have the ability to daily drive or I wasn't going to go any further.I have taken the truck out into the High Desert area out West on vacation and its been down into the valley in Arizona for visit with friends.Its a pleasure to drive and at 208,000 miles and the last 100k like this I would not want it any other way.I think the next thing I am going to do is hang a set of twins,then spruce up the outside finish some since its starting to show its age now and keep on going as I want to se it get to 500k.

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270bar is around 3900psi.
300bar is around 4400psi.

very nice hammer :U: what are the factory pop presures? 2200-2300ish correct? if your hittin 3900 and 4400... you gotta love P-pumps... factory pressure would destroy the VE on my old girl :ouch:

are you planning on changing the timing with the new injectors?

I have the timing now at 20 degrees and have been running it that way for the last couple years.I know that a increase in timing will bring the power up some but will delay the power swing and it will lower the torque number and compromise drivability somewhat.

260BAR or 3770psi.

All i can say is wow i think this is great i could defiantly learn alot from you

Great Thread! Thanks Andy!

:U: Awesome thread!

Great job guys!

I have been working on my combination for a few years getting the deal right and making it the way I want it.Driveability is the key issue and while making power is what we all want,I want that and to be able to have no fear when I take it for a long drive.This truck is no trailer queen and gets driven all year long and sits outside in the weather.If I can not drive the truck then I do not want it which is why I have been working diligently to make it a great combo of power/driveabliity.I have done fairly well and along the way have had a few bumps in the road but with 200k on it now I want to see it get to 500k and want to see the fuel only,single charger number go over 600.

I have a few more tricks up my sleeve yet and have a bigger P7100 here on the bench waiting for an install.I am not sure if that the answer yet or not which is why it has not been installed.I will now tackle the task of getting the POS FASS and its pressure issue fixed next or I will replace it with a AirDog2.First we try and rememdy the pressure issue and if that can not be done we will change the pump.I want to keep going in steps so we can see what has helped and what has not......Andy

sounds like a solid plan, thansk fro the correction in the pop pressures and thanks for the good read :pca1:

factory pop on my 94 was 260 bar

hammer very nice numbers

thinking out loud here, one bar = 14.5 psi

so 270x14.5= 3915 and 300bar is 4350.

so if the pump pumps the same wouldn't it take a XX milli-seconds longer for the pump to build up the extra 30bar and the injectors would fire XX later than if it were to pop at 270 bar. but the benefit from having a higher pressure is the fuel atomize better (if both injectors were 5x13's)

So the fuel with a higher pressure with an injector that is 16% larger, atomization will still be close to the 5x13. so the fuel would burn almost as fast. but the 300bar is what has me wondering about the duration of the pulse for the injector. if it is set at 300bar then wouldn't the duration that the injector stays open be shorter because the injector would only be open when the injector is having fuel being pushed through it at 300bar and up.

:humm:

duration that fuel is delivered is determined by the pump, you are correct about the injection lag, which is where 20* of timing advance comes in; it accounts for the time it'll take to reach the given pressure value. but also the dynamics of fluids are insane... where you think that it'll take a long time for it to build that pressure it really doesnt... like you sia dmilliseconds that can all be regained through advancment. it also depends on the displacement of the fuel in the barrel. more fuel in the barrel while maintaining stock injector lines will reduce lag due to the higher pop pressures... DV's will help abunch too. everything you said does make sense; atomization may be similar but quantity is more... same for injection duration, delay and duration of injection is made up for by quantity

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so i totally re-read that... and i'm all over the place... makes sense to me :w2:

thinking about it more in English class, when the injector pops at 300bar all the pressure above 300bar will be forced out the injector. so for the next injection burst the injector has fuel in the line already pressurized to 299.9 bar and then the delay dont be so long it was just for the initial start up.

but the duration of the pulse how is that modified or is there a way to mechaniacly to increase duration of the injection pulse with maybe a different cam in the pump?

cam profile is the only way there could be a difference in duration but one the plunger is the whole way up its the whole way up it cant bring in any more fuel the only way to increase fuel delivery amount would be the delivery valves and plungers this is way the big boys use sigma pumps they can flow huge amounts of fuel everything inside is bigger

very good thread alot of useful info thanks to everybody:U::U:

so bigger valves and plungers is pretty much having a bigger bore and piston in a engine?

same ammout of movement up and down by the plunger but the fuel quantity is bigger cause the volume is much larger. so how long is the duration :humm:

Weston told me the numbers but I guess I never put together that it was you.

Good post Andy.
:c:

The pump in my truck is a built one.

It has been outfitted with a different cam and different barrels and plungers.

Bigger injection lines on a dyno will lower your hp number,I have done that already.The .093's are better than a set of .120's which will really kill the top end charge on a dyno.I am convinced that it has to do with the larger injector lines retarding the timing a tad as the pump then works a but more to keep them full.I would like to have a billet front cover and adjustable timing gear to play with the injector lines some as I think that gowing to the larger lines and a tad more timing would net me the smae HP results.In a application where you are staying at WOT and at max fueling then I would say the bigger lines would benefit you with keeping the supply high for the engines demand.In a street application where you spend most of your time just barely using the pumps capabilities the bigger lines make daily driving tough and keep in mind I do daily drive mine so the big lines lie on my shelf.

The DV's in my pump are not full cuts either,they are high flows.The pump was done on the stand with them and I have 500cc's of flow and only pick up 75cc's with full cuts.The issue here is when you go to the full cuts it will kill the low end driving daily as it wants to put the fire out.I can already blacken the daylight with what I ahve and feel no need for the bigger DV"s that should only be used for all out competition.