Bad Mpg 97 auto
 

Ok so i got a 1997 with a few things done. banks twin ram intake 3peice exhaust mainfold 4 inch straight pipe pac brake(vaccum) banks quick turbo assembly running 32-33 boost max raptor 150 fuel lift pump k and n drop in filter and boost tranny temp(never over 140f running hot) egt(900f max) guages. has torc lock posi lock and prime lock on it also. I just ordered a new overflow valve with a smaller hole for higher fuel pressure because I am having alot of white smoke and mpg problems. Hard starts in the cold and white smoke when ever i give it some even running at normal temp(170f) i seem to get a mix of white/black .I am also getting about 13-14 mpg. If the overflow valve isn't the problem i noticed three rear injectors had some fuel or oil leaking near the base but not the first three closer to the radiator. My truck has just under 200k miles and i think the injectors are stock and the origional i've gotta a price of 550$ plus 250$ core for some bd 40 over horse injectors should i try anything cheaper first like fuel shut of module? Also thought my timing could have slipped because its getting constant bad mpg and white smoke? any ideas on doing timing myself and buying tools to do it or just bringing it down to local diesel mech. or anything else that could be killing my mpg? Also previous owner had the pre fuel boost screw set to lowest possible, idle to 500-600 rpms to pass DEQ or to try to save gas should i take off the AFC and check the fuel plates position?

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Got about 700-1000 bucks to spend on the fixes.too. thanks for the help and advise!

I would check the plates and timing. Moving the timing up will get you the higher efficiency. Please pay attention and get the current injectors attended to as that may be the majority of your problem (worn and/or bad spray pattern = white smoke & inefficient fuel atomization). Let us know what did it as others might be curious ...I know I am. I think you can turn up your boost a little bit too for more air and power. :tu:

Gut feeling and based on experience...injectors.
Good luck and let us know how it goes.

pull your injectors and have them tested. :hellox:

I would start at the Overflow valve , you have the correct idea, low fuel pressure will cause the Ip to starve the Injectors for fuel prseeure/Volume and make a poor spray pattern also...

If this doesnt fix the issue then yes I agree on the Injectors need to be tested and go from there .....

Start simple and work your way up the Diagnostic chain , dont just toss parts at it, it can get spendy real quick... :pca1: keep us posted more ideas to come :tu:

Ok so got the 40 horse over overflow valve for 25 bucks and 10 or something shipping installed in 5 mins with a 3/4 wrench. This over flow valve is just a bolt without the spring and ball with just a smaller orifice. Fixed the smoke white smoke at low rps and i will post tommorrow on how it starts in the cold and how much white smoke is left. But it still smokes white and starts to sputter 2500-3k rpms. Not leaking fuel and all my fuel lines are new and secure but it seems to be sucking air near the injectors. The first delivery valve has been off and I didn't do it so i am guessing someone timed this truck before me and i got it at 160,000 and two years laters im near 200,000. So from the info from everyone here is to do timing and or injectors are my next parts. I heard 370 marines are smokey shizal, ddp is expensive, but I have seen BD with 40 horse over for about 750 with core charge and rebuild bosch on ebay for about 500-750. Anyone know what gets them the best mpg? and is there any other reason for just poping the first line to the the delivery valve other then someone elses attempt at timing? I wanna start cheapest then move to more expensive but if the timing is fine or close enough for now should i start with injectors? Thanks again ill post tommorrow with cold start info!

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Thanks for all the help to guys! Save me the trip to crappy repair shops and rip off prices! Thats why i went from an 05 lifted dirty max to my 97 cummins! few hand tools and a decent jack and you can do basically anything with some good information! :c:

I would run a tune up and adjust your valves next, can cause the top end sputtering, and if the #1 DV is seeping or leaking need to pull it and check it out, just to make sure its sealed and torqued correctly. :rocking:

I would get a stock set of 215hp injectors unless you plan on going crazy with the power, should be enough for general towing and DD with out all the smoke and heat.
370's are dirty and real hot- not recommended..... get quality and pay a bit, its worth it

Ok so decided on ddp and i am going to order them tomorrow. The 50 rwhp ones, but i've found them for 740 on most sites and 560 on another. Kinda scared of why there is a large difference of $. neither require cores, maybe older models or worse? Gonna go for the 560 of course but how could i know if im getting sold counterfeit or rebuilt injectors? Hopefully get rid of my white smoke problem. Timing is next if not.

why DDP? they are so over priced!!!!!!! give DAP's website a good look see. there are many good injectors out there and they shouldn't cost you any more than $500 to you door. lots of places dont even need cores because new bosch body only cost like $30.
and ide be in the 90 hp market no 50.

www.DieselAutoPower.com

Ok so everyone says DAP and it looks like with a returned core ill save in the area of 100-150 bucks from others. From my research it looks like i would rather have 5 hole .012 at a 145 degree angle not marine at 155. but i got one question i see 12 valve and i see 12 valve SAC on this site for choosing the size what is SAC referring to? The angle? I think most people are stating that the 155 is not right for truck world just marine applications. So i wanna make sure im getting the right ones.

SAC is the design of the tip and is a newer style. you want the SAC sty nozzles.

Awesome thanks turbo2332! Ill update when they are replaced and how it effects the smoke and mpgs.

Were you able to place an order with us? We have 20+ sets already built up for your year of truck.

Yes sir got a set of the SAC 94-98 5X.012. 590$ with install kit under Matt shipped to Oregon! Got free 7 day shipping that somehow changed to 3 day! Checked the bill and there was no extra change either! Super excited to put them on this weekend. ManonBroke you said something about valve and it didnt click with me to tell today.. That I have been hearing a clicking and I think your right, I think the guy who owned this truck last who installed the pac brake might of already put on 60 pound springs with the wrong clearance.:argh: and the rocker arms are taping when i rev it up and the higher the rev the higher the tapping gets in or out of gear.

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150$ core return too forgot to add that unlike the after market so 440$ total.

call in and talk to Brandon. He will help you troubleshoot the valves.

Hopefully no trouble shooting necessary. Got the injectors in and the lines and the intake manifold off. Just took valve covers off and yes, someone had already installed 60lbs exhaust springs. Different color and slightly wider on the exhaust side only. Checking the clearance as of right now. I was wondering i have the injectors down in there holes in the correct placement to the bore slot for the balls on the side of the injector but before i start screwing down the injector hold down nuts do i need to shove it down and hear it click or is just sitting in the ball grove enough? Going to find a loose TDC and do valves and probably finish up tomorrow after i make sure what i am doing is right. Anyone hear of installing twin grid heaters? This truck has got a banks twin ram intake and there is dual heating grids on this bad boy. Someone loved this truck with a crap load of money, I feel like a lucky man. All i've done is replace exhaust, vacuum pump, power steering pump, raptor fuel pump and a posi lock so it deleted my 4X4 vacuum engagement because i hate my vacuum going to anything other then just my exhaust brake, cruise control and HVAC. And my next project is fixing the pac brake solenoid accidentally broke the small chip on the top of it need to hit up pac brake for a replacement solenoid. Needs a new gear box too. Then a gorend input shaft, torque converter and valve body!

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Then i can take apart the afc and see what this truck can do! Still has the screw without a spot to get a screwdriver or allen wrench on. So its never been a racer kept my rebuilt tranny decent, so hopefully i do not have to totally rebuild it before i go crazy with HP.

just make sure you go to Ebay and grab a set of ARP head studs ... just got mine for $417.99 from E-bay .... gonna make this thing fly ... :rocking::choochoo::tu:

your twin grid heaters are actually the factory grid heater split into the two sides of the manifold. factory heaters are two units stacked on top of each other. the injectors just sit in the head. the ball is for alignment only. injector nuts go to 44 ft lbs.

Ah i see thanks turbo2332. And yeah I am gonna do studs when I can afford a new turbo. Usually just repair things with upgraded parts when they act up. So i can justify it to my girlfriend and not fixing the house up.:w2: Not pushing high boost or timing yet. I got the injector lines back on ripped a gasket on the intake manifold in between the grid heater gonna make one tomorrow, and replace the back 4 valve cover gaskets as they were oozing a bit of oil but the front two were perfectly clean, no visible damage was on any of them. so i might just clean and try and reuse them and then i will figure out if it was just my injectors or if i need to do timing next to finally kill this problem, hate white smoke. Checked the valves, they were perfect on almost all but one and only a .002 off on the intake on #6 a bit to tight. The clicking was on a power steering pump bolt, a washer was loose just flopping back and fourth. Not a horrible waste of time, I have learned a lot just from reading all the write ups on this forum.

kewl .. keep us posted .....:pca1:

Ok, everything back on started it up. I can tell the difference in HP! but still got white smoke. Last thing i gotta try now is timing and hopefully that will fix it. Anyone from central oregon and own a dial indicator or a local shop that will charge me fairly? Gonna make calls tomorrow. Probably get and indicator when i get head studs and a turbo. I just need this to get me by for mpg to school, until i can save some money. Any other ideas if its not timing? running out of ideas to get this fuel to burn more complete.

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call Source Automotive there in Clackamas ...... Rip and the guys are geat and the work is solid .... the also have one of the best dyno's around..:tu:

Clackamas is like two and a half hours away from me here, so if I cannot find any shops around here ill go hit them up.I would rather have it done right and spend 50-100 bucks in gas extra to make that 400-500 mile trip there and back. So new problem with these injectors. All seem to be fine but 1 is leaking. the number 4 injector, from the front.It is leaking from the body or the top feed line, i didn't cross thread the top of the injector and i didn't under torque the injector nut. Started at 44. Only one is leaking so i took off the lines and took the nut off and the threads are perfect on the injector, nut and the feed line. Re-torqued to 44 put the line back on and still leaking fuel. both the copper washer on the return line is good, and the one on the tip was stuck with a bit of petroleum jelly to hold it in place. The leak is on the injector above the return line and is leaking down the side of the block.... It is also causing my truck to die in 3rd gear or higher when braking. the idle drops and cuts out. But it is fine if i use gear 1/2 and then D when in 3-5 but This is not gonna be a everyday thing for me. So any advice, of course i sent my cores back today so no switcharoo tests either with any of the old injectors. Not a boost leak either got my gaskets made for the manifold to heater grid and it is holding boost 30-35 psi, just when it slow down, brake or let off the diesel it makes a horrible noise like its starving rps and goes from 750-850 idle and then lugs down to 500 and spudders a bit and dies unless i pop it into first gear. But the best news is even with one of these new injectors leaking a bit, I am still getting as good mpgs before i switched the injectors and these add 90 hp(5X.012) so it might be a 2-3 gain. My next step is gonna be using some thread tape and see if I can mend it, then if it stops i know its the lines but if the body is leaking it should still leak even with some pipe tape any o rings in the lines or is it all compression? Feeling pretty unlucky lately! Any advice appreciated, gonna work on it tomorrow early in the morning as soon as the sun gives me enough light.

Sounds like a small crack in the buld where the line seals to the injector ... know what i'm sayin ... u might try some teflon tape ... make sure you seat the bulkb and don get any thing into the INJ... other wise your gonna have bigger problems ... can yo ucall them for a replacment inj ?

Wish you were closer I would totally come down and help out ...

thread tape on injection lines? put your tools down have a piece of candy than take a good nap.

a return leak will not cause the issues you are having in the gears.

an external leak can be because of 4 things.
1. a cracked body. (ive never seen this)
2. a cracked injector end. this will cause uneven pressure fron the body to disk to nozzle and will cause an external leak at the fracture. this leak will be below the larger nut you tightened to 44 ft lbs. this failure does happen but is normally caught. it is common to break these ends on old injectors that are being rebuild.
3. a poor return surface on the body of the injector. this is very common due to improper removal of the injector. (vice grips) the threads can be damaged inside the injector not allowing the banjo bolt to fully seat the copper seal. however if you have new bodies chances are there is no defect in this area of the injector. i would inspect the copper itself.
4. inproperly tightened injection line or damage to the area vie threads or cracked injection line or nut. this happens more so than 1 and 2 but i see more failures with #3.

what i see most often is #3 sometimes it is a royal pain getting the copper return gaskets to seal. if this is where yours is leaking i would recommend installing dyna seals on the effected return line. a dyna seal is a rubber and steal washer that seals similiar to the coppers. they are used on many fuel injection applications.

a picture of the affected area would be nice.

Greg

Yeah Tacoma is a ways away, that is like 6-8 hour drive here! I will call in for a replacement when i am positive its not me overlooking something on my end. And where the fuel trail is on the injector manonbroke is what i think too. But I hate holding a flashlight and trying to sit over my truck while torqin stuff down so ill start tommorrow this is turning into a sick obsession says my girlfriend. I removed the injector with a SAC 9/16 bolt on top of a washer and 3/4 inch pvc pipe cut at a bit under an inch worked like a charm and i looked over the threads well they were perfect. but I will recheck the injector and look and see if its got a crack in it, I didn't notice anything falling apart but a small crack might of gone unnoticed ill take a closer look and ill recheck all of the lines to the pump on the leaky one to make sure its not just a small crack right above the injector on the line, and check the copper on that injector and make sure i might flip it around on the return just to make sure its on right. It might be injector 3 but i think its #4, I can definitely take a picture tomorrow and post it if I don't figure it out. Thanks for the help Manonbroke and Greg! Gave me plenty of ideas to hopefully fix this so I can do some timing and finally see 20 mpg or better!

good luck i get 15mpg

Ok so took off the return banjo nut and the orifice looked like an oval and slightly bent so I must of over tightend it and or this could be why I had white smoke in the first place beacuse it was on the old injectors. The same one was leaking before but it was misting this time all over the injector. Got two new bolts, one for a spare at a new place I found in bend oregon for 5 bucks a bolt! Beats 45 plus shipping on the websites for all 6! Ill be installing tommorrow morning and give an update! Gonna do timing even if it fixes most the white smoke just for economy hopefully this bolt is the last problem with fueling system as everything but the higher pressure lines and return lines are brand new and I know ip is fine! Sorry for spelling and grammar using my phone.

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Really only 15? What's done to your truck Greg? Any problems? Or just what it is? Also I drive only highway I commute 80 or so miles a day for school.but 96% is highway that is my highest bill right now is fuel.

lots... truck hasnt been on the dyno since it broke 500hp. but ive owned the truck since bone stock and the best it has ever gotten hand calculated has 16.2

wow .. .i drive in the city 90% and my last tank was 17.92 mpg ..... something wrong with those #'s ..... my buddy has 3.55's and he averages 17-18 city and 26 freeway to Idaho .... my best yet is 21.4 mpg with 4.10's ...

so I think the mpg gains listed on every other part is a joke or someone should be able to get mpgs to 30-35. 1-2 mpg adds up on paper and fast but not in reality, or the gains don't fully compound into real gains because other modifications are overwriting the gains it is supposed to provide because the mod tested is just going on a bone stock truck they are testing with just that one additional part? I mean base of like 15 mpg 2-3 mpg from injectors 2-3 from upgraded turbo 1-2 from airfilter and intake even the overflow valve said mpg gains on it, same with exhaust ect. I've heard 3 from mpg water meth and deleting the fan for electric ones is supposed to give huge boosts i mean these adds are definably not compounding in my truck. or do you have to reduce fueling along with modification to see changes? Don't ever hear people wanting to go with a plate to reduce fueling beyond stock. I've hear of people doing some pretty ghetto hydrogen fuel cells to boost mpg too! But 500hp+ is crap load of modding to any year of this era of dodge. At leased done right, which i am gonna assume your not running a stock tranny, so I am guessing a small house could be bought with that investment! I am probably at 250-300hp with these new injectors and everything i got done but stock afc. Nearly half hah! How much horses are you pushing/pulling with manonbroke.I could make a graph on fuel mileage in relation to hp might peak somewhere throughout would be hard to make it consistent with so many different mods and to gather that data.

my engine is a 215 .... with the big exhaust,afc mods FF plate,tires, low stall,timing,bhaf, Synthetic oil..... I'm not seei.g 17.8 city ..... figure around 260 hp ... now ..

pull the plate after studs, more timing,twin ram.... 300 all day no issue .... add a second turbo .. S400 to the hx , and some 75 sticks , and bang into the 400's easy ....... :tu:

Ok so the injectors really made a huge difference, these puppys smoke without adding much! DAP all the way even rebuilt! pulled the injector return line and put the new banjo in it and whoola! perfect! This one has two orifices on it and they are also more of an cone not a single perfect circle cylinder hole like the stock 10mm banjos. MY 12mm banjo on the return line also needs a new washer got the cummins part # and going to the store tommorrow to get it, the T from my raptor return fuel line was missing the bottom one. These injectors also cured all my white smoke other then super high rpms with out load or cold start! So timing is it! Thanks for the help everyone! This forum has saved my life! years of experience in a few minutes/seconds.

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gained a few mpgs ill put up calculations next week when i run a tank through so i can get accurate #'s. It would be a sweet race my truck against your truck bet you would win with your fancy afc tuning hah! But it would be close!

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Manonbroke

I would love to come down and have some track fun .... ur in Prineville ? I have family there so dual the fun .. :tu:

Yeah Prineville! Madras has a track too which is 35 minutes away from here too! Well if your ever down here visiting write me a message we can always go see when if there is a open race night or something sucks its hitting winter soon and might be close up if it gets bad or just seasonally open.

sounds like a plan to me