i would bet they will shut down. same as the current engines will shut down if you don't perform a regen, either cuz of driver not being trained or mechanical fault. when the 07 model engines came out we had a lot of trucks towed in for regen because the drivers weren't told about the lights on the dash, so they would run the truck till it shut off, and once it did you couldn't drive it till we did a regen.

powersmokin's Sig:

1997 f250 crew cab 4x4, dp tuner, 5in stacks, custom turbo, stage 3 hybrid injectors, hypermax intake, beans diesel fuel system, hybrid switzer turbo by wide open performance

they should go into regen on their own...there is a manual regen mode but they should do it automatically when going down the road

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An engine will automatically perform an active regeneration if you are going above a programmed speed, and will stop if you drop below another programmed speed. Cummins likes to default to 40 MPH starting/ 10 MPH stopping, but depending on ECM programming it might not happen in a particular vehicles duty cycle. I don't think you can program a Cummins to do an automatic regen below 10 MPH, could be wrong though...

Theoretically, according to Cummins literature, a vehicle operating at a high enough duty cycle will "passively regenerate" and never need to do an active regeneration.

Stationary, manual regenerations are triggered by the manual switch and are what you need to do if the vehicle won't automatically active regen or run hot enough for long enough to passive regen.

Clogged DPF's don't shut down the engine due to emissions reasons, they kill the engine because the engine can be damaged by trying to run with a 30+ PSI exhaust backpressure.


If a urea system malfunctions or stops working, however, it isn't going to affect the engine at all. I don't see why it would ever kill an engine. Actually, I completely fail to see what's stopping an operator from just not filling it up, or filling it up with water.

Begle1's Sig:

A custom-made electro-digital-hydraulic water injection system with a 1990 D-250 wrapped around it that on a good day might break 15 seconds in the quarter.

unless DOT will check the tank to see if it is empty at a normal roadside check...if that is the case they will probably make the drivers carry a log book for when they fill the urea tank...

If im not mistaken wont the Cummins already pass the 2010 emissions right now without UREA...im pretty sure they were the only major OTR engine maker that could claim that when they came out with 07 model engines...CAT couldnt and stopped making OTR engines all together, and Detroit has totally re designed there engine and electronics to help pass the 2010 emissions

I imagine there will be some sort of sensor in the urea tank that senses level and possibly, through some sort of magic voodoo, the contents of the tank.

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I have heard $5-$7 a gallon and read "about $5/gal" in Diesel Power in the bluetec Mercedes article

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Yeah, it's a "clarity" sensor. I want to say it senses temperature too? I guess it would not inject if it knows it's not urea.

What's going to keep somebody putting remote off switch on it then?

I just see it being a total waste of a mandate unless they really put some teeth into enforcing it.

How is it working in Europe?

There will probably be an ECM input required from the urea sensor to initiate engine operation--or perhaps they will give a fail safe, like say 10-15 drive cycles, without the ECM seeing something from the urea sensor before disabling engine operation.

I would doubt that an inoperative urea sensor would mean instant engine shutdown....they'd have to give the operator a "chance" to find more fluid before calling the tow truck.

Perhaps a NOx sensor in the exhaust system to make sure the urea injection system is working.

I suppose one could fab up a small tank and install the sensor in that so it had something to read.....dunno.

The Kruse urea, AdBlue or whatever, is like 17USD for a 64oz bottle...imagine once the vehicles start needing it there will be a huge mass of available brands.

I wonder if Amsoil urea will be better than the rest?

Our company has our trucks set to Regen at 5 Mph with the ISX575.

We may be ordering a bunch of new trucks right away (before they run out of '09 motors) or looking at newer used trucks to update our fleet to stay away from the Urea for a couple more years.

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Urea or diesel emission fluid or adBLUE - all the same thing. This is the best and most efficient way to get those emissions down. Using a DPF without this is a mistake. The 2010 OTR's will all have this as will Dodge 3500, 4500 and 5500 cab chassis models. I can not confirm if the 2010 Dodge pickup will have it or not but it has been used in this exact form in the EU now for 15 years and works very well.

With Ford just using the EGR and GMC trying to figure out what to do next with the Duramax program I think it is only a matter of time before this becomes common place.

I read in diesel progress that older trucks are being forced to install this equipment to the tune of $9500 + per unit - that's the scary thing. This thought will only take a few more years and all of the light and medium duty pickups will be forced to do the same or park it I'm sure. I don't like that at all.

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when they require all the light duty pickups to start retrofitting with emmisions controls that is when there is gonna be problem... i have a feeling some one will step forward and start countering all these statements by EPA and global warming effiecenado's (thats right begle i can use big words too )

We saw the same resistance to the electronic pump vs. mechanical and the same still with computer controlled vs. electronic. This is just another moderization that we will have to just get used to. The diesel is still more efficient, still is cleaner and is still a better investment than a gasser and all these "controls" are doing is taking away our smoke. The DEF on a SCR system is the way to go - a DPF and EGR only is not.

$9500/truck?! No way! That baffles me...I sure hope it doesn't come to that. If that is the case though, does that mean: EGR, DPF, Urea injection, upgraded engine timing to reduce NOx?

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As far as I know, which admittedly is only enough to be dangerous, it is part of the new Tier 2 and Tier 3 combustion emissions requirements. There is no longer a difference between fuels and what is the worry to some is the Tier 3 - that's what this re/re of old equipment is if I'm not mistaken and it is to take effect in 2013 or so I think. Again, I'm not 100% (yet).

SCR or Selective Cat Reduction is the heading for all of this. It includes EGR, DEF, DPF, and all sensors in place. It involves higher engine temps, higher RPMs, multiple injection events and other such things, some of which we already deal with. I don't think advancing any timing has a place in this, in fact I would think they would retard the timing some if anything since advanced timing tends to smoke.

This is the reason CAT got out of OTR, the reason why MACK is struggling and the reason why Volvo is trying desperately to get something to work. MTU, Cummins and MAK have all got something for their applicable OTR and marine applications. I think CAT is working on something for the off road applications but I am not 100%. Izuzu, Subaru, Mitsubishi and International are all in the mix there somewhere.

Ford / Navistar claim they can meet 2010 (although officially unproven at this stage) with EGR only systems but if this turns into as big a problem as the 6.0L or they in fact do go completely seperate ways with the 6.1L (scorpion?) it spell the end. GM, again as far as I know at this time does not have a proven 2010 emissions system hence the end of the DMAX as we know it. Dodge and Cummins have something that sort of works with the 6.7L EGR, DPF or EGR, DEF, DPF depending on weight class but it remains unproven for real world environments as well. If it uses the DEF it is a carry over of the Benz AdBLUE system which has 15 years of success. If it is the same 6.7L with the DPF only then this is a mess and should be avoided for anyone that can't run that engine hard as the regens will just kill you.

All european cars and trucks (Volvo, BMW, MB, VW, Audi, Land Rover and others) all use DEF and it works. We can't reinvent the wheel here and must figure out how to use it, get more power from it and above all else get our economy back.

End of rant.