6.4 stock turbos on a 6.0?
#1
07-22-2012, 09:15 PM
6.4 stock turbos on a 6.0?
I went to my buddies house earlier to look at the 6.4 setup to see how difficult it would be to try to squeeze the compound setup in a 6.0 we pulled the trucks side by side, it seems as though they may have moved the engine 1.5" forward other than that I do not see much reason why they couldn't fit. Main issues I observed were:
Possible relocation of FICM
Possible relocation of Coolant tank (I think it could be squeezed)
Tight intake bend at low pressure turbo behind the alternator (relocation of alt/pivot turbo like stock turbo?)
Pedestal (have no idea if the 6.4 pedestal would fit on 6.0 anyone have any clue?)
VGT controll (I feel comfortable to say I could figure out a solution to this, if not then purchase a premade controller.)
Intake manifold (I read in other threads about this some guys are saying swap of intake manifold would be necessary.)
Things that seem to be of little/no concern:
Up pipes (would modify and install external wastegate at EGR flange.)
VGT Actuator cooling (depends on how VGT is solved)
Downpipe (strait forward)
Intake pipes (fairly simple to make some custom piping)
What do you guys think? I can get my hands on the turbo's no problem, some of the other incidentals might be a little bit more trickey... (up pipes, pedestal etc.)
Is anyone here near new Jersey?
Possible relocation of FICM
Possible relocation of Coolant tank (I think it could be squeezed)
Tight intake bend at low pressure turbo behind the alternator (relocation of alt/pivot turbo like stock turbo?)
Pedestal (have no idea if the 6.4 pedestal would fit on 6.0 anyone have any clue?)
VGT controll (I feel comfortable to say I could figure out a solution to this, if not then purchase a premade controller.)
Intake manifold (I read in other threads about this some guys are saying swap of intake manifold would be necessary.)
Things that seem to be of little/no concern:
Up pipes (would modify and install external wastegate at EGR flange.)
VGT Actuator cooling (depends on how VGT is solved)
Downpipe (strait forward)
Intake pipes (fairly simple to make some custom piping)
What do you guys think? I can get my hands on the turbo's no problem, some of the other incidentals might be a little bit more trickey... (up pipes, pedestal etc.)
Is anyone here near new Jersey?
#2
07-23-2012, 07:35 AM
You'd spend less money and time just buying a 6.4 and selling your 6.0. Then 600hp wouldn't be anything but a big tune and a DPF delete...
How do you plan on controlling the VGT in the 6.4 compounds? This subject has been beat to death on other boards and the consensus is always the same, it would take WAY too much time/money/effort to even try to get them to work. Otherwise we'd all be doing it already.
They wont fit in the valley of a 6.0 anyways. The intake manifold is different shaped to get them to fit.
As for putting 205's into your current ride... Have you set money aside for a built trans yet?
How do you plan on controlling the VGT in the 6.4 compounds? This subject has been beat to death on other boards and the consensus is always the same, it would take WAY too much time/money/effort to even try to get them to work. Otherwise we'd all be doing it already.
They wont fit in the valley of a 6.0 anyways. The intake manifold is different shaped to get them to fit.
As for putting 205's into your current ride... Have you set money aside for a built trans yet?
#3
07-23-2012, 11:47 AM
#4
07-23-2012, 12:45 PM
The front part where the intake elbow mounts is positioned differently. I'd imagine other than that they will bolt up, since the heads are the same. It is not going to be an easy task no matter what. It would seriously be easier and likely cheaper to just do your own compounds with custom fab. It will be VERY difficult to control the VGT setup on the 6.4 chargers.
Why not just sell the 6.0 and get a 6.4? You can get almost 600hp on tunes, and when you're ready to get to 1000hp, the recipe's for such are already out there. Far easier to do with a 6.4, and still DD it. You are not going to DD a 800+hp 6.0, it's just not happening.
Craig from MPD just laid down 1306hp and 2000+tq with his cabelas 6.4, on a single 75mm charger and two stages of spray... and he has fuel left over.
Why not just sell the 6.0 and get a 6.4? You can get almost 600hp on tunes, and when you're ready to get to 1000hp, the recipe's for such are already out there. Far easier to do with a 6.4, and still DD it. You are not going to DD a 800+hp 6.0, it's just not happening.
Craig from MPD just laid down 1306hp and 2000+tq with his cabelas 6.4, on a single 75mm charger and two stages of spray... and he has fuel left over.
#5
07-23-2012, 05:54 PM
Why not? The best answer I can give u for that is... Because I'm just a pain I the ***.
That's what I thought about the Intake. So how about the turbo pedestal? Have any idea if the 6.4 will easily mount to the 6.0 block?
---AutoMerged DoublePost---
All joking aside I have rethought my goals as it does not make sense for me to build the same engine once for a 500-600hp DD and rebuild another one to put in its place and rebuild this one for high HP.
I also own my truck outright I don't want to sell it and have to finance a 6.4 doesn't make sense to me. As well as I like the front end's of the 03-07's.
I am also not intentionally trying to beat a dead horse but on all of the threads that I have found regarding this 6.4 compounds on a 6.0 it's all been talk, ther has been no hard evidence of why it can't be done. One guy left it open ended said he was going to start playing and.... End of thread.
As much as everyone says "not gonna happen" I say why? I feel like there has to be something major putting a damper on it. If I could squeeze 500-550hp out of stock 6.4 turbo's on a 6.0 I would be damn proud and very satisfied.
If the only thing that is holding back a 6.4 compound on a 6.0 is the VGT. Then I would really like to figure out how to make the VGT work. Especially since it seems like it would be mosly a matter of stock manifold, up-pipes, turbo pedestal, and turbo. Swap them out and the only custom work is the adjustment of a downpipe, waste gate, and intake tubes.
I am going to keep doing research see if I can find that damper. Till then game on...
If anyone is interested in helping out, the remaining pieces to the puzzle are:
6.4 intake manifold
6.4 up-pipes (I'll start off with stock ones)
6.4 turbo oil supply lines
If you know someone who has the parts, or a place where i can purchase them from please let me know.
That's what I thought about the Intake. So how about the turbo pedestal? Have any idea if the 6.4 will easily mount to the 6.0 block?
---AutoMerged DoublePost---
All joking aside I have rethought my goals as it does not make sense for me to build the same engine once for a 500-600hp DD and rebuild another one to put in its place and rebuild this one for high HP.
I also own my truck outright I don't want to sell it and have to finance a 6.4 doesn't make sense to me. As well as I like the front end's of the 03-07's.
I am also not intentionally trying to beat a dead horse but on all of the threads that I have found regarding this 6.4 compounds on a 6.0 it's all been talk, ther has been no hard evidence of why it can't be done. One guy left it open ended said he was going to start playing and.... End of thread.
As much as everyone says "not gonna happen" I say why? I feel like there has to be something major putting a damper on it. If I could squeeze 500-550hp out of stock 6.4 turbo's on a 6.0 I would be damn proud and very satisfied.
If the only thing that is holding back a 6.4 compound on a 6.0 is the VGT. Then I would really like to figure out how to make the VGT work. Especially since it seems like it would be mosly a matter of stock manifold, up-pipes, turbo pedestal, and turbo. Swap them out and the only custom work is the adjustment of a downpipe, waste gate, and intake tubes.
I am going to keep doing research see if I can find that damper. Till then game on...
If anyone is interested in helping out, the remaining pieces to the puzzle are:
6.4 intake manifold
6.4 up-pipes (I'll start off with stock ones)
6.4 turbo oil supply lines
If you know someone who has the parts, or a place where i can purchase them from please let me know.
Last edited by TheReelMuhcoy; 07-23-2012 at 05:54 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
#6
07-24-2012, 07:34 AM
Most 6.4 guys use 6.0 exhaust manifolds, they're sturdier. You'd need custom up-pipes for sure, and custom down pipe. The 6.4 intake manifold may or may not be a direct drop in. That's all the EASY PART.
How are you going to control the VGT function? This is a tuning question, not a fabrication question, most of the TUNERS (the guys who write the tunes) have already said this is basically impossible. Not completely impossible, but the time and money spent on making those chargers work on the 6.0 are not worth it, just build a real set of compounds for it, you'll be light years ahead. The whole idea of going with the 6.4 chargers is they're cheap and readily available right? In the end, it will NOT end up being cheaper.
How are you going to control the VGT function? This is a tuning question, not a fabrication question, most of the TUNERS (the guys who write the tunes) have already said this is basically impossible. Not completely impossible, but the time and money spent on making those chargers work on the 6.0 are not worth it, just build a real set of compounds for it, you'll be light years ahead. The whole idea of going with the 6.4 chargers is they're cheap and readily available right? In the end, it will NOT end up being cheaper.
#7
07-24-2012, 06:44 PM
Well that eliminates an item from the parts list...
Can you elaborate in reason for custom up-pipes? Why not use stockers and just modify as needed?
As for the VGT I have an idea that I would like to try, I dont want to share it because i feel it is either a really good idea or a really bad idea. Otherwise I read a post from a guy with fleece performance who has a turbo controller that he says would do the trick.
Assuming the best for this project, my idea works or the controller works. What size injectors do you think would be good with this turbo? Considering I have abandoned my original power goals, and I would be extremely satisfied if I could reach around 500HP. Are 205's too much for these still? Or would 190's be better?
As it stands I am under $1k with everything but VGT solution. So I don't see this ever reaching the cost of black widow's compound kit, $6,800 (ouch).
Time for a new thread yet? What do you think Mdub (Mike?)?
I am going to try to make a go of this considering I've started buying parts now.
Stroke'on
Jon
Can you elaborate in reason for custom up-pipes? Why not use stockers and just modify as needed?
As for the VGT I have an idea that I would like to try, I dont want to share it because i feel it is either a really good idea or a really bad idea. Otherwise I read a post from a guy with fleece performance who has a turbo controller that he says would do the trick.
Assuming the best for this project, my idea works or the controller works. What size injectors do you think would be good with this turbo? Considering I have abandoned my original power goals, and I would be extremely satisfied if I could reach around 500HP. Are 205's too much for these still? Or would 190's be better?
As it stands I am under $1k with everything but VGT solution. So I don't see this ever reaching the cost of black widow's compound kit, $6,800 (ouch).
Time for a new thread yet? What do you think Mdub (Mike?)?
I am going to try to make a go of this considering I've started buying parts now.
Stroke'on
Jon
#8
07-25-2012, 09:27 AM
I'm guessing the controller used from fleece is aimed at the duramax crowd... their VGT setup is WAY easier to control than that of the 6.0 or 6.4.
This is also why we don't even use the stock 6.0 chargers in a compound application, because they're terribly hard to control in that configuration. The duramax's use a vane position sensor, simple and easy to control. The 6.0 uses backpressure guesstimates and equations to control the vane position. So on a 6.0 VGT is commanded, not referenced.
Also the 6.4 VGT has an electronic actuator, while the 6.0 is hydraulic.
Even if you got it all to work... the LARGE charger in the 6.4 setup is only a 64mm charger. Do you think it's worth all of that to only end up with a 64mm charger? A lot of guys use those and larger as singles on a 6.0. Also the exhaust housings are quite tight on these, so backpressure will be high.
Just some food for thought.
I applaud your efforts if you want to continue to do so, but just know that this idea has been thought about before.
Keep us posted whatever you want to do.
I'll make this all it's own thread now...
This is also why we don't even use the stock 6.0 chargers in a compound application, because they're terribly hard to control in that configuration. The duramax's use a vane position sensor, simple and easy to control. The 6.0 uses backpressure guesstimates and equations to control the vane position. So on a 6.0 VGT is commanded, not referenced.
Also the 6.4 VGT has an electronic actuator, while the 6.0 is hydraulic.
Even if you got it all to work... the LARGE charger in the 6.4 setup is only a 64mm charger. Do you think it's worth all of that to only end up with a 64mm charger? A lot of guys use those and larger as singles on a 6.0. Also the exhaust housings are quite tight on these, so backpressure will be high.
Just some food for thought.
I applaud your efforts if you want to continue to do so, but just know that this idea has been thought about before.
Keep us posted whatever you want to do.
I'll make this all it's own thread now...
#9
07-25-2012, 05:35 PM
Anyone happen to have some documentation on the 6.0 VGT and 6.4 VGT controlers with voltage ranges and such?
As for the size of the chargers, what size is the stock 6.0 charger? 58mm? Again I ask how much power could I get out of the 6.4 compounds? It has to be more than what I can push with a stock charger, maybe somewhere around 500hp? Depending on how hot I run it with injectors. Which I would like to stick with maximizing my dollar and use 205's, but maybe for my case of pulling a 9,000lb trailer 190s would run cooler and cleaner?
You mention the exhaust housing is tight. How so? Is it an area that I would be able to port it out without affecting the spooling of the turbine and achieve less back pressure?
Well let's just say things are under way, I have a pedestal and intake manifold on the way. In the next couple of days I will have the turbo on its way too. I am still trying to find up pipes (even the upper half of cut off ones).
Everyone's efforts and input here will be greatly appreciated. If you have done some research of your own on this idea, please share I would love to hear your findings.
I think I am going to find someone to make me a new powerstroke badge "6.0.4 Powerstroke"
Jon
As for the size of the chargers, what size is the stock 6.0 charger? 58mm? Again I ask how much power could I get out of the 6.4 compounds? It has to be more than what I can push with a stock charger, maybe somewhere around 500hp? Depending on how hot I run it with injectors. Which I would like to stick with maximizing my dollar and use 205's, but maybe for my case of pulling a 9,000lb trailer 190s would run cooler and cleaner?
You mention the exhaust housing is tight. How so? Is it an area that I would be able to port it out without affecting the spooling of the turbine and achieve less back pressure?
Well let's just say things are under way, I have a pedestal and intake manifold on the way. In the next couple of days I will have the turbo on its way too. I am still trying to find up pipes (even the upper half of cut off ones).
Everyone's efforts and input here will be greatly appreciated. If you have done some research of your own on this idea, please share I would love to hear your findings.
I think I am going to find someone to make me a new powerstroke badge "6.0.4 Powerstroke"
Jon
